I caught P&T this past Friday in Vegas along with a magician buddy. Watching their show from a magician's perspective was like watching pure poetry in motion or enjoying a fine wine. It's obvious how much care and work went into making things look magical (Teller's new Miser's Dream using an aquarium and a fish bowl was nothing short of genius).

P&T did not come across as trying to expose magic per se. [There is one brief routine of Teller demonstrating sleight of hand doing things that everybody already knows magicians can do (and he performed it superbly) and I'm sure that everyone in attendance was thinking how smooth/beautiful the performance was instead of "so, that's how they do it!" Even their version of cups and balls should not affect any other magician - how many of us have a second person load a cup for us?].

Rather, they are definitely against psychics/shysters/people who pretend to have some sort of magical/supernatural powers in order to steal money from honest people. Along those lines, they gave a demonstration of cold reading which was very entertaining. [Out here in San Diego, we're unfortunately blessed with tons of these little "psychic shops" that prey on naive individuals, so more power to P&T for doing this.]

My friend and I have seen a lot of magic over the years and attended many shows. It's far too often that we have to give two separate reviews i.e. one for lay people: "you'll love the show", and another for magicians: "you'll be bored; you can see the dirty mirrors, etc". I give a lot of credit to acts like P&T, Mac King, and the World's Greatest Magic crew who make us magicians forget what we know and enable us to feel the same sense awe/wonder/amazement as the lay people in the audience.

The Penn & Teller show was absolutely wonderful from beginning to the bullet catch ending. There were several fake reveals that supported the comedy (e.g. knife throwing bit). However, it is definitely not a straight exposure show, but a finely laid out piece of artwork.

[Note to Jonathan: Bob is doing fine. See my avatar pic.]

Well I say avoid exposure whenever you can, however I don't think it ruins magic. I have heard though that Penn and Teller have exposed the TT. Now, you can still fool the heck of people with the TT but why the heck would they expose that? To show people that they can vanish a hanky as well as a magician can? Are you freaking kidding me? (That's what I heard they did correct me if I am wrong).

LMFAO!!!!!!!!! That made my day Josh!

Very funny Josh.

The piece that you are probably referring to it called the National Magic Trick. They have taught an entire studio TV show audience before the show how to vanish a silk handkerchief and then have the whole audience of do it in unison on the broadcast. The actual gimmick was never revealed to the TV viewers.

That piece was created as commentary on the lack of individuality in the magic community. The vanishing silk has become a hackened bit of magic. Since too many people do it, Penn & Teller's satirical point was that it should be pushed through and become something that EVERYONE does. It should be the National Magic Trick.

It is a funny bit and gives us something to think about.

I've tried to summarize the difference between Castle and P&T here on the olde blogge...

http://erlandish.blogspot.com/2008/04/lu......e-9.html

Not much there that I hadn't said already in the thread, although I think my rationale is a bit clearer.

Just giving that horse a couple more beatings.

And castle is teaching those who want to learn, just as bad, worse, or .... maybe more honorable?

I get it!--they're about to expose the inner workings of the horse!


But is that ethical?

Is it against the law to do that even for music? (dead horse as percussion instrument)

Wow !!
This topic was well baited, and got lots of bites. - Even when it was revealed some remarks were posted as 'Devils Advocate'
Excellent choice of lures.
Loved watching the nibbles, and really big bites. Some of the best fishing for posting entertainment I've ever seen.
In all the 'rises' and bites, nobody bit to hurt anybody else.
Good manners, respect and a sense of fair play are not always observable in threads. They are here, in the Café. - I'm glad I joined.
I cruise the 'Topics' whenever I visit.
I always learn, or find a link to do so. I'm always stimlated, to learn more.
Thanks guys.
Nice debate/de bait.

I'm not a fan of exposure in any sense, however there is exposure that damages magic and it's public perception and in my very humble opinion exposure that evokes skill and wonder..

I am a huge fan of the TT, but would not vanish a silk with it for the very reason that it has become an effect that is sold in joke shops and many members of the public know and that is not due to Penn & Teller as they have had limited TV exposure here. They did have a show on Channel 4 but it wasn't a huge sensation.

Youtube really is the thing that worry's me more, exposure for exposures sake is spiteful and disrespectful. Penn and Tellers Blast Off routine shows an effect that no one has really ever done, is comical and yet still gets a huge round of applause as it is very difficult.

The cups and balls was done so fast it was a blur and I know many guys who slay an audience with the cups and balls years after their version was on TV.

The Prestige was in my opinion a wonderful film, even though it exposed elements of what many members of the public think they know already it did it in a way that showed craftmanship, skill and value.

The DB lift was exposed on the secrets of street magic which is a major move in almost every card effect, I still do it and no one knows. Method is 10%, however conviction, structure and premise are 90%.

I see everyones points here and this is an important subject, we do however need to distinguish the level and purpose of exposure.

As Eugene Burger once said "I'm sure the general public don't really think the ball materializes under the cup, more that the performer put it there when they were not looking.

Spelmann

Ouch! - that sort of thinking depends on contextual presumptions which have no validity in other valid and accessible situations.

Lies are good if they are "white" and genocide is fine as long as its not your "geno" ... right? Really...you don't fuss over stepping on an ant hill so why fuss over other such activities - especially when done with "good intent"?

Fair point Jonathan,

I do however think that not all things are black and white, in art, politics, religion etc there are many shades of gray / grey.. Although this does not add much to the debate it is a fact..

I can only be offended by what offends me, Penn & Teller do not fall into that category, the masked magician does. My thinking or opinion isn't right for everyone or indeed maybe anyone but it is my thoughts..

Exposure does happen for different reasons, let me elaborate.

In 2000 I was banned for a year from The Magic Circle as I had released a weekly article in a national newspaper revealing simple bar bets and what I call 'cracker' tricks, in other words effects that are not in the arsenal of professional entertainers, they are more novelty effects and to be fair the method is pretty obvious with a minute of thinking.

The Magic Circle took your view of exposure is exposure but let me tell you why I was the face of these publications.

I was initially approached by the newspaper as an illustrator as I was trained in that field, they mentioned the feature was to be based on magic each week so I told them I was a professional magician / mind reader.

At the meeting they produced their research which contained Mark Wilson's Complete Course in Magic (a tomb of effects and secrets still used today.) Expert Card Technique, 101 Thumb Tip Tricks, Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, The Magic Of Michael Ammar, 13 Steps To Mentalism etc etc. I was horrified, the stack of books laid before me were true gems of magic that could not be in the public domain and certainly not shoved in peoples faces every week.

Where had they gotten this material? From the local magic shop of course..

I told them that I would be happy to write and illustrate the articles each week under the understanding that I had 100% control of content. They agreed and thus I gave all of their 'research' to my local magic club for their library. I then purchased a few beginner books in magic and bar betcha books and that was the content of the articles.

Exposure in this case was not half as bad as it could have been in fact I stopped a major publication read by thousands if not millions across the UK reading very valuable secrets. if they had just hired an illustrator who went through the books unaware of secrets, material etc it would have been a major issue for many professionals. But as The Magic Circle took your point of view I was still banned. If I had walked away which I was prepared to do if I didn't have 100% control the articles would have still appeared as the advertising campaign had started.

Was that exposure wrong? Did I do the right thing? It isn't so easy to say, thus there are many gray / grey area's..

Spelmann

Marc

Wow that's a really interesting story.

It was a nightmare..

Cheers Chris.

Spelmann

So this Castle fellow is teaching magic to people? I've never seen his site, but IF he's exposing marketed magic effects for people who want to learn them without permission of the creators, then he is taking away the originator's opportunity to sell his work, at least to the portion of the market that knows where to find the work for free. Penn and Teller don't do anything to harm the people creating magic effects.

That "IF" is vital to what I just said, so if I misunderstood what Mr. Castle is doing, apologies and please ignore.

I happen to disagree - it's not as if your cat were being held hostage and you had to write the articles overnight or never see your cat ( read significant houseplant, dear mother ... whatever if you don't have a cat) again.

IMHO while all cats are grey in the dark, your rationalization does not hold a candle to your denial in this case - sorry.

BTW I'm not going to support the Magic Circle in this either as they have members who have sold magic data on the open market and worse, so let's not paint them as better than "price sensitive" on this matter.

Please elaborate on my denial? What do you claim I in denial about?

Also please tell me what you would have done if this situation was presented to you? What in your wisdom would have been the right thing to do?.

Spelmann

Your first statement is not quite accurate either, if you read my previous post the advertising campaign had started, thus the article was going ahead no matter what. It was actually a case of making a decision there and then with a 5 day deadline for the first four articles.

Article 1: Vanish a 50p coin. Method: Create a foil coin, fold it in paper and screw it up.
Article 2: Remove a note from underneath an upturned bottle. Method roll it out with a pencil.
Article 3: Balance a note on it's edge with a coin balanced on top. Method concertina fold the note.
Article 4: Make water vanish. Method: Put a sponge in the bottom of a beaker.

Are you really telling me that is the same as:

Article 1: A card rises to the top again and again. Method: Double lift, pass, double undercut.
Article 2: Coins thru table. Method: Classic palm, french drop, retention vanish.

I have read a lot of your posts Jonathan and clearly you are an intelligent man, please do not let your ignorance and lack of knowledge in my situation get the better of you to prove you are right and I am wrong.
A good man know's when they may have to change their stance and now is your time.

Spelmann