Thanks for your comparison of the white dot in movies and magical perception!

yes there always has been and always will be exposure,
and we have to work around it,
but younger magicians have not yet developed
the creativity and invention to do this successfully,
so they are most hurt by extreme exposure like this.

YouTube and all the other internet videos
have brought this dilemma to a new level.

However I have not seen (and probably will not see)
any action taken by our main magic clubs and organizations
to prohibit such infringement from their members.

Walt

I just realized he lives pretty close to me...
Maybe I'll have to pay him a visit.
Seriously.
Gwyd

Here is the part that sucks. You cross the line and do visit him and you definitely are in a violation if you assault him. Heck if he finds these posts it is premeditated. Not cool.

I think many often get confused in the difference between "should" someone and if someone is "allowed" too.

Should he be exposing things? Well I like to think not. Is he allowed to by law? I believe so.

Tina, though a bit misguided makes a bites around the edges of a slight point really.

I have always said that as magicians we need to avoid reducing ourselves to just the sum of our tricks, and certainly not the sum of our methods. But if you are going to do a sub trunk, and the know the method, and know everything, then how can you really captivate them with a presentation? It is a problem.

So "should" he do it? No. Can he do it? Yes.

Aw shucks Danny...I wouldn't actually hurt or even threaten the little guy. I'm not a violent fellow. It's much more my style to buy him a cup of coffee and try to explain why what he is doing is wrong.
If the fact that I kinda look like a bouncer at a biker bar scares him into stopping his campaign of stupidity, well...what can I do?
;)
In all seriousness (No...me going to visit him in a threatening manner was not at all serious), I really think we all just need to get used to exposure. I know that the exposure of some tricks has led me to develop my own methods and effects, so in a sick way, it helped me grow as a magician.
If we get this kid to stop, someone else will pick up where he left off. It is a never ending battle. If we give him attention, he gains power, and in his mind, legitimacy.
So...where is the line drawn? How much exposure and theft of creativity can we ignore when legally we have no way to fight?
Ignore the youtube exposure brats. They are just kids, and kids love to appear clever. They have no "power" in their everyday lives, so wherever they percieve they can find it, they go for it.
Knock off illusions and effects...There is my personal line.
That is just me.
Where do we draw a line? Do we draw one?
I think that has to be an individual decision.
Gwyd
And Danny...I promise, if I ever say "I need to pay Danny a visit...Seriously." Don't worry...

The coffee is on me.

Well Marshall Brodien in my mind was the big exposer back when I started magic in the 1970's. Because everyone could get trick decks at the drug store, and the fact that he told everyone there was such a thing as trick decks, and that they existed.
So I just learned sleight of hand.
I remember the day I saw his first commercial, My stomach felt in knots. I was just a kid but already known as the "magic boy" at school, because of my Svengalli deck routines and nickels to dimes.
So I learned sleight of hand.
Now M.B. is being honored, from what I hear.

I want to get this punks autograph.
30 years from now, he will probably be honored in the clubs with high honors.



This is the autograph I want, one day it might be worth something!

ACE

The problem is this. He may not be violating any laws, except in the case of the Kennedy video.

That's right!

Exposure is not a violation of copyright. It may be immoral, but it's not illegal. It's only illegal if they duplicate an existing video, give the precise instructions as written or actually duplicate a graphic.

He can't be punished by the magic societies unless he is a member of one of them.

Now, that doesn't mean you can't get it taken down.

But don't go threatening unless you really know the law.

BTW, I don't know why they would need to consult the estate of Roy Walton. Last time I checked he was still alive. Alex Elmsley is another matter.

Perhaps what is needed here is some laxative percussion and/or some orthopedic work.

I once saw a tutorial on his site for JK's "Impossible Matrix" with instructions on how to make the gaff as well.... does that count?

Nope. Not unless it is worded precisely the way the instructions tell you to do it.

Bill is spot on correct. The law is very specific at how it defines copyright.

I went there when someone tipped me off and what did I see? An effect sold by penguin magic. Nothing amazing in itself, but it was THE video of Oz Pearlman explaining how it was done. that's right, the very one you would pay to download from penguinmagic. That has to be a copyright violation.

I just called him and spoke to his mum (!)

I politely but firmly asked her to tell him that his website is unethical and steals the intellectual property of other magicians and I have called all the way from Australia just to say that.

Mother's have a lot of more power to get him to change then we do!

Hooray for mom

If you do work up the courage to give him a call - perhaps you could post the details here.

Thanks all.

We've finally got a reply from Dave J Castle after an article I wrote about him on our blog http://magicunlimited.typepad.com/magic_......comments

Here is what Dave J Castle has to say about his exposure of magic:

Dear Ellis & Webster,
It is very interesting that you are making allegations that my company is engaging in theft and wrong doing when both of you have directly violated copyright law by utilizing my original "magic performance" pictures from one of my commercial websites without permission. As for the complaints that site is a bad site, I do not share your viewpoint. The website helps thousands of people all over the world learn the art of magic who may have not had the opportunity otherwise. Also, it gives individuals a place to chat with each other and build friendships.

Furthermore, the website primarily just organizes magic videos (tutorials and performance) videos that are already hosted somewhere else such as youtube, metacafe, etc. If you have a serious concern about the distribution of magic videos that reveal magic you should probably contact the actual distributors, however, since teaching magic is not illegal, I am not sure that your time and effort will yield the results you would like. The world is becoming more digital everyday and there are going to be major changes in the way things happen in our world. I have tried encouraging magicians to adapt to this new wave but many want to live in the past and not change. One example that would help magicians would be to create products that Require the person to buy a gimmick this way even if the idea is out of the bag people will still have to buy something from them. I think it is very interesting the magicians think they can invent a trick and the idea will not get shared all over the world for free, they must be living in a fantasy world, whether this is right or wrong it is occuring not just in the magic niche but in many industries and the smart people will adapt to the new paradigm. Also, it is interesting that people come after me because I teach magic when several major entertainers, for example Penn and Teller reveal magic all the time and generally on TV with millions of people watching but yet many people in the magic community still respect them.
I have also seen other major names in the magic community doing tutorial videos for all to see and it seems to becoming more common.

I hope that this post has given you some information to think about and that you will begin to understand other people's viewpoint on this issue.

Dave J. Castle

Posted: Mar 8, 2008 4:37pm
Get your Dave J merchandise before they all disappear http://www.cafepress.com/MagicShirts

Ok, the "Classic Thong" was just more than I could bare this morning!

Funny, but most of the exposure I've seen on the Internet has been from performers who did not intend to expose. For example, I once saw a british dealer's video demo of Bavli's "side effect" that made the method pretty transparent. And he was trying to sell the thing, not expose it.

I'm really suprised how few people are actually prepared to DO SOMETHING about this exposure. I suggested people call David and have a chat. Aside from a few vague responses about being nice to his mother, no one seems to have DONE anything.

If you really think this is exposure then DO SOMETHING.

It's interesting because the IBM SAM Code of Ethics says that members "Oppose the wilful exposure of magic."

It seems in this case they'd prefer to "Ignore the wilful exposure of magic."

Tim,

It has been my experience that IBM, SAM, BlackPool, FISM and many other orgs have purposely turned a blind eye to both exposure and knockoff illusions. Every now and then they may make a move that follows their guidelines but it is not very often. I fear that the membership dollar is more important to them than the rules they set out.

Best,

Tim

Day 12

Bill Palmer said it: Unless he's a member of a magic club, he cannot be punished by them.

And the kid has a point; If you put an effect out there your living in a fantasy world if you do not believe it will be spread worldwide, without remuneration.

So stop making magic accessible, stop making magic videos and instructional material. Use the massive amount of magic we already have, which you have to study and practice to do well, if at all. Teach the next generation of magicians personally.

Or !@#$% and moan about it. In the end accomplish nothing of real value, other than prove magicians to be the whiny jerks Penn says we are.

Or consider that this exposure really isn't going to destroy the world of magic, because the people we should be entertaining are not searching youtube through thousands of magical garbage videos to know our secret.

Any anti-magician prejudice that's out there is certainly due to previous experience with poor magicians, and that stereotype has been around before youtube. There are simply more bad magicians, and unethical magicians that good and ethical ones, and it would seem this has not been confined to the technological era we are in.

We are only responsible for ourselves, we are only able to affect change in ourselves.

So what are you doing to make yourself better?

selling your new DVD and book to anyone with a dollar ain't gonna cut it boys. Let them try to explain my routines on you-tube.

Regardless, this will be summarily dismissed, so I wasted another few minutes of my time. Oh well, I get paid by the hour.

P.S. I dislike exposure and do my best not to do it myself inadvertently.



I didn't even put my spoke in on the topic.

His motive is notoriety. Why does anybody post on the Internet?