We could simply decide to have an oath as magicians

And treat magic data as trade secrets

And any public reference to magic data as "indecent exposure".

But this would involve consequences for those to take and worse for those who propagate data, especially to muggles.

Interesting thread.
Can you actually resell the material for the exact price or more than you purchased it for?
If not, then consider that the price you paid for the effect as you sold it for less than you purchased it for. The manuscript would be used and not new and the depreciation incurred by the initial purchaser and now seller would be the reason that no government in the free world with free economies would limit the resale.
Stephen King would be laughed at if he said "You are not allowed to resell a book after you have read it because I want the person to purchase a new book because I created the story" All of this have been said before.

Actually, just like rare books - a seller could sell it for many times the initial price. For example the works of Andruzzi or even Obsidian Oblique that come up for sale time and time again at astronomical prices.

That is again the power of the free economy. You can not ask to live in it only when it suits your needs. I have sold two books for a lot more money than I paid for them because I received great offers on them. I love the economy like that. In general though and with 99% of magic books it is not possible.

Hmm how about this. I have purchased different items for my non-magic business. Those items (and not all of them)were on a lease only. The way it was worded was something along the lines of: You may use it anyway you see fit. You pay only the one time fee which grants you the permission to use the item. You may make up back up copies (software). However; you can NOT resell the item!

Sure you could sell it to someone else who is going to know right? Well if you ever got caught performing or using the item you could be liable for anything you ever made and any damages that you might have caused the other company.

Now people may say that nobody is going to go after them because it will cost too much. Since it is a lease we are dealing with all it would take would be small claims court or civil court (if you want money for damages). You may have to travel once or twice, but after the word got out I don't think people would be so inclined to break the lease agreement. If you are an LLC you would not have to hire a lawyer (in most states). Also internet sites that post it would be in violation of the lease agreement as well as the original poster. I don't think most of the major guys would want to get in a haggle with something like that and would most likely bump it off the site.

So basically you would own the item/act/gimick without being able to resell it. If you wanted it bad enough I am sure you would buy it. You already bought items you never thought you would sell in the first place.

The creator/reseller would have the rights and maybe even offer a buy back at a discounted rate in order to resell the used ones if the so choose.

Sounds like what Bob Kohler is doing with the holdout he leases. Maybe more should follow his lead.

The problem with going to court is that if the creator loses it would open up many other creators. You cannot lease something intangible such as knowledge. It has to be a very specific item. If you lease props for example you can not remake them due to copyright infringements but the knowledge contained in a book is very difficult to define in a lease, yet not impossible.
It may actually be a good idea for the magic community to come up with something that can be used to protect the creators. That is a tasks I would leave to the smarter people around here.

Abc...how about software instead of the books. I currently lease software that only provides information, it does nothing else. I could be wrong, but I think software may actually fall under the telecommunications laws as well so if you distribute it or copy it you are not just breaking copyright laws which would be civil but you may actually be breaking criminal laws.

Here is a sample of copyright infringement:



here is the same thing, but reworded which is not a copyright violation.



By the way ABC, you're wrong in your wording, but almost there in your thinking.

as an example, a box is protected by patents; the blueprints of the box are protected by copyright. The idea can not be protected, unless it is expressed in some tangible form (blueprint, drawing, copy), in which case it is protected by copyright.

the magic community is last on the governments list to amend the law. self regulation is a better approach, but that would change the marketplace, in order to be effective.

Also, if someone figures out how an effect was done and then decides to expose it, there is nothing you can do about it, regardless of changes in the marketplace.

I suggest, accept the good with the bad, if you decide to pursue magic.

IMHO people who talk about problems don't want to solve them.

To that end I suggest we start by discussing better options.

How about treating secrets as something you can't buy in shops?

right on... the short version of what I've been saying. Of course JT, you already knew that.

by the way, that may make a decent sig.

Also, how about treating secrets as something you can't buy on this forum. If we're going to clean house, lets start with the dirtiest room first... items for sale section.

Perhaps what should be written in all this material is that posession of the material grants the holder the rights to perform the illusion/trick/routine and that anyone performing without possession of the material will be in violation or copyright holder's rights. It is like the cover bands in music, they have to pay some kind of royalties to someone when they perform the composition before an audience? right? We don't have an ASCAP or other such monitoring and enforming agency to protect performance rights in magic.

But then again, this would cause a problem with derivative works and open a whole new chapter in magic and legal rights. At what point is a performance a derivative work of the original and the owner is allowed to sell that?

This can get real crazy because I learned a lot of new stuff in school and college. I couldn't copy the books, but I sure could use all the information included in the books whether I owned the books or not. If someone has the trick/illusion down pat, then I feel they have the right to sell the materials and still perform the trick/illusion....unless the document says otherwise!

A secret is a secret as long as you don't share it with anyone! Just as soon as you step out and do the trick, someone will either figure out the trick or make something just like it. Given time, it can be figured out...unless it is a real miracle! In which case, please share it with me.

Thanks, I love this conversation.

Brett Bensley

Magic, unlike what one finds in other subjects, is built up from secrets.

The performer is expected to vary the materials as offered to suit their needs.

I hope we can agree that it would be awkward to tell someone else's secrets.

The question then comes as to what data (secrets) are appropriate to tell/tell/expose?

Jonathan, perhaps people inventing and performing their own effects would do away with the needles publishing of the data.

Sure, some people may not be equally creative, but I believe everyone has, at the very least, the ability to come up with a few effects.

It seems, many people collect magic like tech heads collect gadgets and gizmos... they don't need them, but it sure is fun having them.

I would really like to know why people publish their secrets. Is it to stroke their egos?

... Hey If I publish this and get it out, I might become a somebody in the magic world. Perhaps, then, I can hang out with the inner circle and walk with my head held high.

And, to those who have a genuine need to teach, why market to the masses? Why not hand pick a few select students? one word "EGO"

I hear it now: "Oh but magic will surly die if a new breed of people don't come in to learn the ropes and carry on the tradition". Please... gimmee a break!

... Magic will never disappear!

From what I can see, there are too *** many of you! I personally feel the herd needs to be thinned in order to bring back the "Mystique" of the craft.

...This many magicians is certainly a lot too many.

I get the feeling many come into this craft looking for magic, lured in by the promise of secrets.

But then some get distracted by the market promising not mysteries but puzzles, trading clever for wonder.

Once addicted to clever, they forget that our craft is about giving the joy of wonder to others. They rush to learn how glamor makes fireflies into fairies or how to be "one ahead" all the while losing track of those who would enjoy the gift of magic.

IMHO there is only false joy in pretending to learn in order to pretend to give.

In my opinion that magic is not in the secret, the prop used, or the words written. It is in the heart of the performer. I have seen some magicians take a common average trick and make it a masterpiece, and I have seen some of the greats make a masterful piece look as bad as the kid next door (rare but true).

The truth be told, that if I was able to keep a satisfactory living, and I had some great tricks/secrets/illusions/etc. I would share them freely. Mostly with those I think could do them justice or make them better. Some I would share freely with all. At one time, in another profession, I did freely share a lot of information about the items of that profession. None of it was a secret, but most felt like others here, there were too many of those doing it, and this would increase the lot. In fact, shutting down the free stuff made even more people want to go into it, find out about it, and compete in it. And the quality diminished as well.

I am not saying that will happen here.

Maybe people publish their secrets so others may take it further or do it better than them. Maybe it isn't really a secret after all! Some of the "new" stuff isn't really new, just a mod of an old trick.

Some people do it for the money, some do it for ego, some do it for other reasons and some really don't care what anyone thinks and they do what they want.

Brett Bensley

Brett-- It is very difficult to dismiss the facts, about magic being available to the masses. That being said, why do people continue to publish, knowing -damn- well it will not remain a secret... I don't get it.

I'm telling you, these people want accolades from their peers. It is all about ego.

Obviously it makes sense for the distributers, but why in the world would people still come forth and expose their methods to anyone that has two pennies they can rub together.

I often wonder why some folks write.

JT... EGO!