Hey, GREAT idea! Then we wouldn't have the double lift, the pass, the classic force, or any of the other card moves and tricks that you know, as you wouldn't have even had the foundation to work with--probably wouldn't even have known card magic existed.

Here's a thought: Don't blame the creator, blame the thief!

I'm sure that there are some legal ways. Maybe not the first to come to mind but there has to be one, and it's not because magicians repeat one after the other that there is no way, that it is the case. In legal matters, creativity also exist.
Do we have an American lawyer among us? What is the smart recourse that Eric could have?

Lawrence, I agree with you and everyone else. Don't know if any of you golf, but every major brand has a rip-off and copy and if Callaway, Nike, Taylor, and Ping just to name a few can't stop it, I doubt that we as magicians can either. That is why when there is something really good, it stays underground or priced to keep the curious away. A lot of great magicians have taken many secrets to the grave for this very reason.

Steve

Lawrence, these laws are pretty clear. A magician lawyer is not going to be able to rewrite copyright law. But this topic comes out from time to time so just do a search. This argument has been rehashed again and again.

Want to take down this specific clip -- email Metallica's reps about it.

Eric, 2 options as I see it.

1- Contact them and ask them to credit you in the video. (and Metallica, too, for that matter)

2- Get a lawyer. Right or wrong, their copyright page employs intimidation to get you to think twice about challenging them. That page isn't there to save you the trouble. It's there to save them the trouble. If you have the resources, force them to use some of theirs and call their bluff!

Sorry you have to deal with this. What goes around comes around... at least that's what "they" tell me anyway.

fmp

Just look at the dude performing!! He's enough to keep me well away from buying any of their downloads. Interestingly, before I became rapidly bored with the place, there was a twisting effect that looked remarkably like The Asher Twist - complete with finale! Thank goodness I'm not a creator - I'd have ulcers by now!

I personally do not agree with some of how magic ethics are "made up." For instance does anyone know the name of the person who actually invented the "Asher twist" perhaps the real name of the trick we now know as Twisted Sisters? I have seen the video and fully believe that this is Eric's move, however how many tricks are sold over and over routines included that have moves idea or perhaps the entire routine itself if a rip-off. This seems to be the driving force in releasing material that is sold to the magic community. For years I have heard stories of Frank Garcia being one of magics biggest thieves.

But then again think about Ed Marlo and Vernon who never gave people credit for anything as if they invented or reinvented everything they marketed. It is a growing trend to believe that "I" invented a trick or routine or a move. Honestly going as far as to sue someone for their pants can be fun but is it really worth it. Perhaps a more delicate way to demean someone is in order. Put a posting after contacting the person or group who posted it and their response. Make your self look like the bigger person and let the "little people "squirm" when you are so civil about it and become embarrassed.

The fact of the matter is this, I'll use the Asher Twist as an example does anyone remember when Lee Asher was offering to switch out the "knock off" DVD for his if you mailed it in to him and all the fuss that was made by Lee Asher about "his" Asher twist? How was it resolved? It eventually stopped because the person who made it up came forward after all the fuss started. Look it up its no secret. Take baby steps and gather your ammo then step forward if they decide to play games. That's my opinion.


BTW, I know I'm gonna get a lot of heat about the Marlo Vernon thing, so let me just say this, The both of them as well as many unsung heros gave a lot to magic. I'm not denying that but at the same time I'm just trying to say that it seems to have always been that way it's just easier now with the Internet. that's all....... Please don't kill me.

Been there done that.

But then, I realized...I'd be DONE with magic...at what point do you draw the line? I'll tell you this, I had a few really good ideas a while back...but the ugly head of "thievery" raised its head, to remind us...there IS no justice in magic!

:cry:

Doug

Yes. I do. But the dispute over this was settled. Kind of.



Not true. At least not in Vernon's case -- for just one example, see "Twisting the Aces," in which he credits Alex Elmsley for inventing the Ghost Count. He credited Nate Leipzing for all the Leipzig material, and he credited Charlie Miller for the Charlie Miller move. And there are dozens, if not hundreds, of other examples.

Regarding copyright of a magic trick -- All you can copyright are the way you have explained it. In other words, if the guy substantially copies your written description, your drawings, or your video, then you can get him. Otherwise, all you can do is shame him.

Obviously, this guy has no shame.

And THAT is a shame....

These pubtricks people recently added me as a friend on Twitter and offered me a free trick. Not knowing anything about them, I went to the site anxious to get a free new effect. I was horrified as I watched video after video of one ripoff after another. Some effects were not ripoffs but were just plain dumb in method and presentation!

Needless to say, I didn't get my free trick and I removed them from my followers and sent them this msg:

"Your site has tons of ripoffs! Those that aren't ripoffs, are inept attempts at magic by sorry individuals. Please do not add me again!"

Unfortunately, the seemingly increasing number of unauthorized rip-offs can IMO be attributed in large part to the proliferation of magic -- both the effects themselves (e.g., on YouTube, etc.) and the various bulletin boards, newsgroups and forums such as the Café on the Internet. Videos and e-books are so easy to copy, share and sell that almost anyone can do it and the ignorance of most about copyright law and intellectual property rights, coupled with the high cost of enforcing such rights when the actually pertain, allows the scoundrels to do so with virtual impugnity.

IMO one of the best, and perhaps only practical, means of protection is that if you are going to publish something original put it in a BOOK -- and I mean a REAL BOOK, not an e-book. While there is no denying that a printed book can be scanned and turned into an e-book, the time and effort required to do so for anyone for whom such work is their primary occupation makes it more difficult and therefore more impractical for the typical rip-off artist. Not to mention the fact that so many of the current crop of "magicians" -- those whose primary source of information is the Internet -- so rarely bother with real books that those who would be most likely to rip it off are also those who are least likely to be aware of it in the first place. While those who are most serious about the art are those most likely to rely on books rather than the Internet, DVDs and videos as their sources of choice.

Accordingly, if and when I ever publish or release any of my work it will be ONLY in the form of a real book.

Re: The use of Metallica's material -- The IP laws of the US (and all the signatories to the Berne Accords) do offer more protection to music than they do to magic. However, I'm certain that these fellows, with their knowledge of IP law, have purchased the rights to Metallica's music. With all of the internet publishing they have done, it would be a cheap investment. Nevertheless, it wouldn't hurt to report them to the RIAA for the use of this on the internet.

This website is clearly marketing other peoples work "passing off" as their own, they get people to create a video then pay to download the solution and share profits, there are dozens of peoples intellectual property on the site used without authorisation!

The website owner simply quotes "you cannot copyright a magictrick" no.. but passing them off as your own to profit from them!

If websites like this are allowed to continued passing off, then new people to magic will never get to know original tricks or their creators, the history of magic will be lost!

And new people to magic will learn wrong and bad methods from the "kids" who are uploading bad videos to learn from to earn a quick few pounds/dollars.

Who owns this crap site? Anyone know?



What losers!

I never heard about pubtricks
what a bunch of jerks
cant believe the guy is even showing his face while performing somebody else´s effect.
do this guys even go to conventions and stuff?

It's a sad three-step process. Someone invents something and wants to profit from their own creativity which is their right...in this case a pretty card change.

The idea/move is pirated - in this case by some guy selling an instant download for $8.95 - cutting out the creator entirely.

The third step has the pirate being pirated by an 11-year-old kid on YouTube who wants to show the world how clever he is by making a "tut" (computer-shortened word for "tutorial") on his home video camera and giving the move to the world for nothing.

Part of the absurdity is the kid admiting "I just learned this" as he works his way through the instructions for the camera.

Given the lack of respect many magicians show for performance rights granted through copyright, why should the above be any surprise or shock. If a guy can't control where he allows his original choreography to be performed, what chance has he to control who takes it and spreads it further?

Mr. Alexander, does the kid on YouTube have any contract with the person who originated the effect?

I doubt it. He's just a kid who lists his "tut" under the thief's name for the effect, not the originator’s.

The copyright of the "physical" products offered has not been violated. Why should this be an issue and not the violation of a performer's wishes to limit or be compensated for performance rights?

They both are the established practice of magicians. Exposing the tricks of others has a long history.

Maybe this is a solution. A routine is released with among other limitations of performance, not granting the right for anyone to perform this routine on YouTube. While it won't stop the kids posting them, it will arm the originator with some legal jargon to get the tutorials pulled.