Yes, I don't think I am anywhere near pro but, I think if you are "pro" about the routine you will not get harmed. If you follow the method it can't go wrong and I even have my own ways of doing this effect that are 100%.

I do live in a time that wants everything extreme and needs to push the limits of entertainment. I feel this is a good way to keep spectators happy and they will remeber my name for a long time.


Don't worry about it. My parents would never let me do this effect, so I guess I am going to have to wait till I leave the nest....

When I am 30.



Lee

Peter,

We obviously agree on this point but you also used the following example: "Even the most offensive of game shows take great care to protect and insulate members of the audience who are on stage".

Many of these "reality" TV shows use a game show format so I don't see how the current rash (maybe that is the best word to describe these programs) of this kind of "entertainment," shows any care and concern for the people on stage.

Again, I haven't really watched this stuff except as described above so perhaps I'm missing something.

I was also thinking of shows like Weakest Link and American Idol (again, I've only watched a few minutes of either) that abuse the contestants. Sometimes, like folks agreeing to go on Springer, they seemed like gluttons for punishment.

I was also a bit confused by what I saw as a contradiction in two statements in your latest post. The first statement: "I certainly don't know if entertainment, as a whole, is heading in this direction." The second statement: "The "dumbing down" of entertainment is a sort of chicken and egg thing: Who started it, the audience or the performers?

I don't know, but the "dumbing down" of entertainment IS a fact."

Please believe me when I tell you i'm not trying to nit pick. I respect your postings and just want clarification.

As for Pyro: I just don't want your name remembered posthumously! Also, I am sure most folks injured or killed while doing effects believed that their methods were "100%" Thank goodness for involved and loving parents. Stay healthy and let your audience remember your name for your style and personality rather than for an effect. This is the closest path to immortality. Otherwise, at best, you are just the guy who always wins at Russian Roulette. At worst....

Bill

Bill,
I would separate game shows, like Wheel of Fortune, for example, and reality shows, like Survivor and American Idol (and certainly Springer!).

Weakest Link is sort of in a class by itself; the contestants are insulted, true; but they know that well beforehand and apparently relish the thought in exchange for their few minutes of fame.

Actual game shows, like Jeopardy and Wheel of Fortune, treat the contestants with a modicum of respect.

Reality shows and Springer-type shows do not. (Of course, anyone who goes on one of those shows in the first place doesn't deserve respect but that's a whole other story!)
The contradiction you detected was my fuzzy thinking.

Entertainment, I suppose, IS headed in that direction. Entertainment, as a whole, is considerably less than it was four or five decades ago. And the audience and the performers are both to blame. When you look for the lowest common denominator, you are almost certain of finding it!

Hope that clears things up a bit; it's a topic that I'm a bit passionate about and, as a result, I sometimes have a hard time writing rationally about it!

Turk,
You picked out two good examples and I think you answered your own question. All magicians should think along these lines.

Peter,

You said: {quote]The contradiction you detected was my fuzzy thinking. Entertainment, I suppose, IS headed in that direction. Entertainment, as a whole, is considerably less than it was four or five decades ago. And the audience and the performers are both to blame. When you look for the lowest common denominator, you are almost certain of finding it!

Hope that clears things up a bit; it's a topic that I'm a bit passionate about and, as a result, I sometimes have a hard time writing rationally about it![/quote]

'nuff said. I know well the impact of passion on the ability to express oneself rationally. Thanks for answering with such class.

To address the comment that "pro's" don't get killed...how many pro's have died doing the bullet catch?

The attitude, as a result of the "dumbing down" of the audience, is no longer "Ooh, let's get some vicarious thrill by watching a fool risk his life", but is now more along the lines of "Let's just see if this idiot is really this stupid", in which case if you survive, you lose, as no one really thought you would put yourself (or others) in harm's way, and if you don't survive, well, you were simply living up their expectations, not really what I want written on my gravestone.

Personally, I would have to say that anyone who embarrasses, puts down, or makes stupid their audience has a decidedly mean or cruel streak in them. Whether they deserve to have something similar enacted upon them is a karma issue (perhaps they already did, and this is why they feel such pleasure in the power over another!). But this could easily be extrapolated to the psychic reading issue - does a "performer" have the right to tell someone about their "future", and, thus, potentially, alter it?

The hypnotist who "convinces" the audience member that he/she is seeing spiders, when, unknowingly, the hyp-ster is preying on their arachnophobia. The palm reader who says that the client has a short life line, and, as such, will die early - removing any possibility of medical treatment when the client actually is diagnosed with something of concern. Or the magician who pulls the bra off of a naturally shy young girl, and causes her the trauma of a lifetime, thus succeeding in never having her get up in front of an audience, board meeting, group of friends, etc., again.

We might laugh at these seemingly innocuous things, as we feel, in the big picture, that they are small little pranks. But we have more power than we know, and we can seriously hurt them, if we are not mindful of what we do.

A gun in the ear? Drinking acid? If you are truly suicidal, do not involve your audience as participants; let them watch if they so choose, but give them the opportunity to walk away. Anyone remember Jon-Erik Hexum, the male model who shot himself with a blank-loaded gun, and died? I'm sure he wasn't a performer, in the same sense (or, lack thereof) as we are...

Do pro's get killed? All too often...

Peter,

That is a very interesting question. I had never thought of it before but, with the increase of diversity of culture in our countries (USA and Canada), this is probably something to really consider. And even if you use someone you reasonably believe (or know) would not take offense with you using him as a spectator in a bizarre routine, how do you know about the rest of your audience.

But here's the rub...you can carry this political correctness and ethical sensitivity to such an extreme that you would have no audience, a bland act, or both. Where to draw the line? Ah! Now there's the rub.

Turk

Turk asks: "Where to draw the line? Ah! Now there's the rub."

Good point!

And knowing where to draw the line, how far to go and NO farther, knowing the difference between emotionally touching your audience and figuratively punching them in the head -- all of that is what makes a pro.

Larry Becker in a separate post talks in great deal about how freaked out a spectator was on stage who was to pull the trigger on the gun. He stated that the guy was sweating profusely and was as white as a ghost, and never asked to be put in that situation.

A number of years ago, Michael Finney in a lecture talked about how the second trick into his act (Cut and Restored Rope) he makes some very funny but may be viewed as inappropriate jokes with the lady volunteer, as well as reaching around her body and stuff. As she walks off stage, he always pulls the mike away and whispers a thank you to her and apologizes for any problems. When she returns to her seat, he takes a step farther by announcing to the whole audience that he does the same trick night after night, using the same rope, same lines, same moves, etc, the only thing that makes the trick different is the great lady he has on stage and says, "this next round of applause is just for you." It makes her feel good, makes the audience see he is a stand-up guy, and he has them on his side for the whole rest of the show.

Michael

I think the Banacheck trick and the Cassidy trick is not the kind of tricks Mr.Andrus was pointing. Those tricks can temporalily give audience uncomfortable feeling, but magician release it at last.

There are much more unethical behaviors by magicians. I witnessed that my friend was stripped his clothing while he was assisting a magician as a volunteer. It was at FISM 2000. Audience was laughing hilariously, but I was not because I knew how my friend was feeling. The magician was one of my favourite ones, but I started to dislike him from that day. He is a third-rate comedian without doubt.

There are similar behaviors like this. Performers do such behaviors don't have any right to talk about "Art" or "Entertainment".

Hideo Kato

The same guy again did same thing with a Japanese volunteer at FISM 2003! This time it was worse. The victim was a Japanese lady. He ripped off her shoe inspite she was refusing it. She was my friend again. She complained this unpleasant experience to me later.

Hideo Kato

A very interesting thread. I've never thought about the issues that Turk raises before--of course I've never wanted to embarrass an audience member, but the issue of putting the spectator into an ethical dilemma is new to me.

After thinking about it for a while and reading the posts here, I think I have to agree with Turk and Neil. We should never be putting audiences or anyone else in these kinds of ethical dilemmas. If we must do Russian Roulette or Bullet Catching (and pyro, I know you're 15, but please read your magic history on this--MANY PROS HAVE DIED DOING THIS!) then let's find a way to do them without involving a spectator. It doesn't take much creativity to see how to re-work these effects to avoid putting the spectator in an unpleasant position.

As an aside, I think that in general we have to be much more aware of how we relate to our audiences in magic. I forget where it was--either in this forum or Genii where someone wrote an excellent article about how too much of magic is about "The Spectator is Always Wrong." Think about it--"What card are you holding? A king, no,it's really an ace. Where is the coin? Over here, no it's really over there." The result is that the spectator is made to look wrong and foolish, and may never volunteer again. Instead we could perform "The Spectator is Always Right." With a little thought the effect could play like: "What card are you holding? A king? That's exactly right. Now blow on it. Wow, you made the card change to an ace!"

Sorry if I've seemed to go a little off topic, but the basic thread holding this together is respect for your audience

landmark

Spectators dragged on stage are under ENORMOUS pressure. Many of them become very self conscious and understandabley strive to preserve their dignity.

BTW, this is the mental state that pick pockets take advantage of. Talk about a great opportunity to drag them on stage by the wrist and steal watches.

The condition is perfectly normal. However! stripping them of dignity and sacrificing them for a big laugh is spineless and a crime. Scott Guinn's webiste mentions the guaranteed dignified treatment of his audience. He's written various articles at visions.com regarding the proper treatment of audience members.

At a recent private party we were treated to the magic of a walk around performer and we couldn't get enough of the guy! A real gentleman who magnified each spectator and selected "assistants" with utmost respect and dignity. He's been booked again.

In this age of shock rock, shock TV, and even shock magic, loving and respecting your audience can be a REAL TREAT for them!

I do Osterlind's 'Acid Test' with milk and toilet cleaner.

For the uninitiated, it's a blindfolded roulette where I have to drink the milk, not the toilet cleaner of course, once their positions have been mixed up in clear glasses.

This thread really puts a new perspective for me on the issue.

Hmmm....

I have avoided posting on this thread because "once started" I could write books -- hardly what anyone wishes. So, I offer a couple of thoughts only:

1) the apparent fact that a large portion of our society finds putting other people down as "entertainment" is an indication of a de-evolution of our culture. Magicians have the opportunity to demonstrate a higher standard. Sad that they don't.

2) Respect for another person must start off stage and be part of who you are. Interrupting a live conversation to answer a cellphone is just as bad as humiliating a person on stage.

3) the most powerful magic effects are those done in a spectator's hand. If you abuse the essential trust required you will always get the wrong type of volunteers.