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Thomas Kwon Veteran user 333 Posts 
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Pie
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yachanin Inner circle Cleveland, OH 2105 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-26 21:54, Jim-Callahan wrote: Hi Jim, To claim the challenge is "rigged" without any explanation is not really a useful answer. How is it rigged? I read the rules on Randi's site and do not see how it is rigged or why Randi would run from you. Why would Randi run from you? I do not expect to be spoon fed by you or any one else. Did you interpret my request for a simple answer to a simple question as a plea for "spoon feeding"? Regards, Steve
"Impossible? Your audience will think so..." TM
Thought Association Card Triangulation Word Search Detective Christmas Eve Sights - Start A Family Tradition |
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Thomas Kwon Veteran user 333 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-26 21:54, Jim-Callahan wrote: Are you sure it's not you that's running away? Living in denial never helps. 
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts
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Thomas, Apple Pie at that.
Steve, in my view there are more important things in life than money. And even if I needed the money, there are places I would not go to get it. Case in point: I'm a disabled veteran, had I wanted to I could have never had to work another day in my life. The DAV was ready to appeal the VA's initial !@#essment for me and have my disability benefits increased (the normal way it is done, low initial !@#essment, then correct !@#essment on appeal, a way of the government controlling expenditures), between that and Social Security Disability I could be quite comfortable. But I made the decision to work, despite the fact that I'm in constant pain and that parts of me no longer function, and that my condition is degenerative. I raised my children to know that there are no handouts, no golden goose giveaways, and that free cheese comes with the price tag of your self respect and self worth. Others may think there is a golden ticket with their name on it, I don’t, I’ll make my own way on my own terms. I have nothing to prove to anyone other than myself. I’m the one who has to live with my choices and decisions. There is a little insight into me. Tony |
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edh Inner circle 4698 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-26 20:22, Slim King wrote: If you had the "power" it would not matter a bit of it was rigged.
Magic is a vanishing art.
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Thomas Kwon Veteran user 333 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-26 22:24, Tony Iacoviello wrote: and an AMEN at that.. Quote:
On 2008-05-26 22:26, edh wrote: /thread |
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yachanin Inner circle Cleveland, OH 2105 Posts
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Hi Tony,
I understand and respect your answer. Thank you. Regards, Steve
"Impossible? Your audience will think so..." TM
Thought Association Card Triangulation Word Search Detective Christmas Eve Sights - Start A Family Tradition |
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts
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Kind of hard to guess some of it with all the "!@#"s but I !@#ure you they were not bad words.
Thank you Steve. Tony |
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yachanin Inner circle Cleveland, OH 2105 Posts
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Hi Tony,
The profanity police are on the move
Regards, Steve
"Impossible? Your audience will think so..." TM
Thought Association Card Triangulation Word Search Detective Christmas Eve Sights - Start A Family Tradition |
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Samuel Catoe Inner circle South Carolina 1268 Posts
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Is there no end to the question of is it unethical to pretend that you have powers that you don't have?
Ok, lets try a different tactic. What if you really have powers? Is it ethical to tell people it's a trick? You have genuine powers. Honest to God, could pass tests if you wanted to take them powers. You have something that every human may be capable of realizing. Is it ethical to not share them? I tell people that when I bend spoons that it is a power of my mind. That is the truth. It IS done using the power of my mind. Nothing else is used. Not tools, no gimmicks, just the spoon. I have used borrowed spoons. There is no sleight of hand. You can actually see the spoon bend in my hand. You can sign the spoon before hand so you know there is no switch. Is it ethical to tell them that what they just saw is a trick when they know it's not. When no level of trickery can explain to them that it is possible? Is it right to tell them (whether you're telling the truth or lying to them) that what they know they saw is a trick that you pulled on them? Do I really care if it's ethical? So long as it's not illegal (or at least not very illegal) I'm going to say what I think the audience needs to hear.
Author of Illusions of Influence, a treatise on Equivoque.
PM me for details and availability. |
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zimsalabim Special user Orlando Floirda USA 520 Posts
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Quote: On 2008-05-26 22:16, Thomas Kwon wrote:
Joe Zimmer
"The Second Greatest Magician in the World" Who is the Greatest? Everybody else! Borrowed with respect from the late Great Eddie Fechter Owner of the Forks Hotel Zimsalabim Orlando Florida |
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts
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Thank you those who took the time to post their thoughts and arguments.
To those who would prefer to insult me on a personal level may I suggest you send me a PM so that I can get your messages privately without having to subject readers to this thread. For those who want to post jokes and gags we have a whole section for that! PD - The ACCC has specific legislation about using deception to profit. The latest Little Black Book of Scams has a chapter on fake fortune tellers etc. It does not cover people who claim powers that they can not prove. It refers to those who knowingly deceive. This is not a thread about claiming powers in your show or on stage. There is already a thread about this. This is about those who use the trickery of magicians and mentalists in a forum not !@#ociated with performance and theatre. E.g. someone who runs a 1900 number, does private readings. What is the difference between a psychic advertising special powers and then using trickery to fake those powers, with advertising a car has done 10,000km and then turning back the odometer from 100,000km? |
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-26 23:09, Nicholas J. Johnson wrote: Might I suggest that you post any future threads of this nature on that forum? Tony Iacoviello |
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Destiny Inner circle 1429 Posts
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NJJ
This is what I found on the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission website in the Little Black Book of Scams - which was yellow: Quote:
Generally, a psychic or clairvoyant scammer will That to me is very different to an entertainer offering a private reading. I don't do private readings but who am I to decide for others that they should not? What right have I to forbid other adults from seeking out readings? If we allow readings are we then to forbid people who have certain interests from performing them? So, a trained accountant, for example, would be permitted to perform readings, but not a magician? And who should be allowed to contribute to a discussion about such things - only those who keep their discussion devoid of the humor life itself allows us? Destiny |
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Bill Palmer Eternal Order Only Jonathan Townsend has more than 24316 Posts
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So, what's the difference between a coin manipulator doing the Miser's Dream and an apport medium producing money during a seance?
Is the manipulator required to step forward and say, "Now, remember, I'm producing all of these coins by sleight of hand." And if he says that, and actually uses "a GIMMICK" at some point, is he guilty of an ethical violation? This whole discussion reminds me of the conversation between Jeffrey Jones and Johnny Depp in "Ed Wood."
"The Swatter"
Founder of CODBAMMC My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups." www.cupsandballsmuseum.com |
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NJJ Inner circle 6437 Posts
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Destiny - We are not discussing entertainers but instead discussing psychics who use the skills of entertainers (i.e. mentalists) to fake their powers.
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Destiny Inner circle 1429 Posts
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Nicholas,
I a.s.s.umed as this was originally in Penny For Your Thoughts and focused on a gentleman who sells books about both performance and readings that the discussion concerned performers who do both - a list that would include Doc Hilford and, I think, Bob Cassidy. I must have been wrong, or perhaps caught by a multiple out. Turning over a different card would not have helped. I only have one of Mr Websters books - I had to dig through a few boxes to find it. It's on numerology. Nicholas J. Johnson said Quote:
He teachers people how to pretend to be a psychic and perform actual readings with resources such as "Home Psychic Parties For Fun And Profit" and "The Mail Order Psychic" and "The Astral Travel Workshop" The numerology book, although not on your list, teaches no such thing. He appears to have a sincere belief in such things (a belief I do not share) and he teaches accepted systems of numerology much as books available in most book stores teach systems of tarot reading, astrology, rune casting etc. Does Mr Webster say anything in regards to the other books about 'how to pretend to be a psychic', or is this an a.s.s.umption you have made? Destiny |
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Samuel Catoe Inner circle South Carolina 1268 Posts
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Nicholas, I understand that you are referring to people who do readings. It is no different from a performer taking the stage. Some people do reading to genuinely help others. Other people do it to fleece the masses. The same with preachers, ministers, and priests. Some do it to help people. Others do it to fleece their congregations. When someone says they are talking to God, few question it. When someone says they see talk to the dead, people jump all over them. I am not against anyone making a living and have nothing against psychics. The only thing I dislike is when people are taking advantage of others. Whether it is taking advantage of their faith, their grief, of their stupidity. You don't have to be a psychic to do that.
Any psychic who is using a mentalist's trick to earn an honest living is fine in my book. Those who are offering to remove curses to make someone's life better, telling them that for only $5000 more that their lives will be better, or saying that the money they have earned is cursed and they need to bring it to them to be cleansed are fleecing the ignorant. Those are the ones who give honest psychics a bad name. Worry about them and not the honest ones. How do you tell the difference? When/if you go see a psychic, if they give you a reading (palm, tarot, rune, whatever they use) then ask for payment (or the other way around) and tell you have a good day, you got a good deal and what you paid for. If they mention a curse, tell you they need you to come back for a cleansing, or some other stuff; get up, grab your bag and wallet, and run. Just my thoughts.
Author of Illusions of Influence, a treatise on Equivoque.
PM me for details and availability. |
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Experimentalist Veteran user 356 Posts
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To address the original queston.
Webster's books are about how to present legitimate readings in a manner that is entertaining and satisfying to the client. Readings that give clients good value for their dollar. In other words, his books are about how to provide a high quality service to discerning adults who have decided that they desire that service. What kinds of services an individual should seek out is a matter of personal choice. Not something to be dictated by magicians. |
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John Nesbit Inner circle United States 1421 Posts
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It seems to come down to this. For the one who started this and the "other" thread on "ethics", it's a matter of what he alone feels about mentalism. To him it seems obvious that to be "so good at it" that you astonish your audiences beyond their wildest comprehension. Is to be, unethical. Anyone "that good" at it is, unethical. Unless they repent on the alter of this apparent "so-called popular opinion".
Tony, Jim C., Bill Palmer, Gabe, Destiny and Erlandish to name a few, have spoken out with truth and integrity to the end that, this "ethics" issue is more like an obsessive compulsion for those with a performance phobia. |
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Posted: May 27, 2008 01:54 am 
