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Robert M Inner circle 2482 Posts 
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I remember doing what I thought was my best material for a group one time, and a woman kept interupting and explaining how each trick was done. I stopped the performance early, and later asked her how she knew? She said "My pastor is an amateur magician, and he always explains how his tricks work."
Exposure sucks, especially when it's this blatant. Why on earth would Paul Nathan or any magician do this? Doesn't make sense. Robert PS - Still love Penn & Teller though - probably because I don't do the cups and balls!#%&! |
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tboehnlein Inner circle ohio 1789 Posts
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"Don't know what this guy did cuz I wasn't there but in your post alone your description of Ascanio was somewhat of a tip as was the mention of gimmick cards in a particular trick...... Stones and glass houses come to mind!
Just mi dos centavos amigo" BS!!!His description of the sleights on his post do not even come close to exposure nor does the mention of the word gimmick your comparison is ludicrous.No layman could determine what those moves were or did by merely reading the post. That being said watching Paul nathan's video doesn't really approach exposure either, the explaination is so quck that chances of a layman remembering any of it afterwards is slim to nonenot mention having no ideal how to execute the sleight, if anything it could make the audience appreciate the perfromance of the magician even more. I remember years ago it was popular when asked how an effect was done was to provide an answer similar to, first I do a double then I perform a cull followed by zarrow shuffle ending with a one handed palm, they stil had no ideal what you just did. |
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Vernest Regular user 169 Posts
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Why would he do a routine like that anyway? I would seriously like to know his thoughts on why he did it that way.
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rick727 Regular user Houston, TX, USA 188 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-07 13:30, Vernest wrote: He sent me a strongly worded e-mail. He does the routine to setup for the next trick. After the explanation phase he says things like, "That is how other magicians do it. They trick you with fancy moves. I am now going to do something that is impossible. No sleight of hand. Watch this..." He was adamant that the explanation phase is not exposure. He stands by his routine and says that he does it often. I encourage people to watch the video (instructions to see the clip are posted above.) Make up your own mind. Is it entertainment, or exposure.
Practice what you present.
Present what you practice. |
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adamc Regular user Sydney, Australia 138 Posts
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If enough of us email him about his presentation, he'll probably change his routine. Instead of just exposing the sleights, he'll now say "I'm about to show you the secrets that the magic world don't want you to know. Secrets that have been closely guarded by magicians for decades. Here's a 50 page thread on The Magic Café from other magicians that wanted to stop me from exposing these tricks, so now you know just how important this information is, and that my hefty fee is warranted! Yes, that's right, today is your lucky day, employees of Texaco, here you will learn exactly how to perform these miracles!"
I've watched some of his other videos, he's been doing this for a while and is quite successful, entertaining for celebrities and corporate events. I'm sure he's probably toyed around with doing the McDonalds aces trick by itself and also with his exposure before hand. He's probably gotten better reactions by exposing some of the sleights. I highly doubt anything we say will make him change his routine. It's just unfortunate that he feels the need to expose these sleights to give his routine more impact. And yes, he does go over these sleights so quickly that no layperson would be able to gather much information from them (I even had a hard time following them), but at the same time, it'll make these people much more suspicious when they see another magician. And perhaps they'll remember things wrong and when another magician is showing them Triumph, they'll yell out "He's doing an Elmsley count!" and think that they've figured out the trick. |
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Maestro Special user 802 Posts
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Talking about magic on a MAGIC FORUM is a far cry from explaining sleights to your audience. If the throwing stones in a glass house analogy could actually be used here, Rick would be tossing pebbles and Nathan would be hurling flaming boulders. IMO worrying too much about exposure on a "public forum" is silly. This is a community, and anyone finding their way here obviously has enough interest to understand that sleights are used in magic.
Magic is going to be destroyed because somebody coming onto the magic Café read that somehow, somewhere out there in the world is a way for 5 cards to be shown as 4. On the other hand, it very well may be destroyed if you say this TO YOUR AUDIENCE as you are performing for them. |
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MickeyPainless Inner circle California 6065 Posts
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Tboehnlein,
I have made my apology in public and stood corrected and Rick and I have taken care of it in private so lighten up! |
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big dan Regular user UK/Canada/New Zealand 178 Posts
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I sent him an email just now. It's definitely wrong. I can see where he is going with it, trying to be like Penn and Teller, but I don't want people questioning me when I do an ascanio or a DL. "hey man, you're hiding a card" or "let me see, that's more than one card there, I saw this guy at a tradeshow and he told me....." etc..
Sucks
Some people work to ski....i ski to work!
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kammagic Inner circle 1304 Posts
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If you were to step by step teach an entire room of layman all these sleights only the layman that were already rude jerks are going to use this information to disrupt your performances. We deal with rude jerks everyday and as professionals we need to know how to handle them. If you perform in a cocky look at me I'm smarter than you fashion then a layman with some inside info may decide to bust you out. If they bust you out for no reason then they were already a jerk and the fact that someone exposed magic to them has nothing to do with it. If you are getting an unusual amount of layman heckling you or calling you on moves then you better look at your act and fix whatever the problem is. Its not the laymans fault its the fault of you the magician. The only times I have been called on something is because I screwed it up. I accidently flashed a break or spread a double.
I have never had my act effected in anyway by exposure. Those guys who are getting busted in their acts and cry that exposure is the reason need a reality check. 99% of the time it is our own fault we got busted. Suck it up and work harder to be better at what you do. |
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rick727 Regular user Houston, TX, USA 188 Posts
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I have exchanged some e-mails with Paul Nathan. He claims he has been doing this routine for 12 years. You can see a Youtube video of it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wf2MbmY5PJQ
The presentation I saw of it was a little slower than the Youtube version. Many of the phases are so fast that a lay audience truly could not catch on. However, there are parts of it that he makes blazingly obvious. Please watch it and decide for yourself. He claims that he constructed the routine as an extension to Paul Harris' Reset. He said that he discussed it with Paul during the creation phase. I told him I thought it needed adjustment. Since he has done it professionally for 12 years, and performed it countless times I doubt he will consider my opinion.
Practice what you present.
Present what you practice. |
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lunatik Inner circle 3226 Posts
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How about following a restaurant magician around and before the magician gets to the next table, we'll explain a few sleights to everyone so that they will be ready for some great entertainment! It'll be a guaranteed way to make your tricks more powerful. The more they know the better!! Yippeeeee!!
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
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clarissa35f Veteran user 363 Posts
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Just to correct the original poster, this appears to be Paul Harris' Reset.
As to whether it is exposure, or if it is a reveal used to make McDonald's Aces look more magical, that really is not for us to say, but up to Paul Harris. it is his effect and last time I checked he is still alive. Unless he died. My point is, that while the original creator of Penn and Teller's Cups and Balls is no longer with us, and therefore not affected by exposure, Paul Harris is. Me personally I hate exposure of any sort. Seems like a very straight forward rule to follow. " Do not expose the secret to anything." Once you start finding exceptions, where do you draw the line? And who decides if you did or did not " really" expose? What if the creator is dead, but the handling was modified by someone presently alive that STILL makes money from either performing it, or from selling the secret to his own handling? I just feel once you start making excuses, and rationalizations for exposure, you go down a slippery slope. What happens when the lay person gets used to exposure and comes to expect exposure, and another magician does not accommodate? I think it's best to keep it straight forward. "Do not expose any secret whatsoever." Then we need not worry about " well it was ok, under these circumstances with this trick...but not under those with that trick.." PS This was Blatant Exposure, he went over Ascanio Spread very slowly, and was understood, and he blatantly gave away the DL. I stopped watching at that point since it got me sick.
“Amateurs practice until they get it right.
Professionals practice until they can’t get it wrong.” <Anonymous> "There is no such thing as magic, there is no other way that could have been done" <Whit Haydn> |
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rick727 Regular user Houston, TX, USA 188 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-07 18:17, clarissa35f wrote: Clarissa, you are correct this is a variation of Paul Harris' Reset. I spoke with Nathan Paul (via e-mail) and he discussed his ideas with Paul Harris when he created the effect over 12 years ago. I am not familiar with Reset. What I saw was a magician do a "Trick" and then an "Explanation". I do not know if the "Explanation" was part of Reset or not. My complaint is that his "Explanation" really and truly was an explanation. Nathan Paul explained that his intention was to dazzle and confuse them, not to explain it. You (meaning anyone who reads this) can watch the Youtube video and decide if it is explaining (exposure) or dazzling (e.g. confusing) the audience.
Practice what you present.
Present what you practice. |
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warep New user 13 Posts
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"The big thing to note is that even if you know how they are done these sleights are invisible when performed" -this is taken from the Youtube page
Well do we all agree on that? |
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rick727 Regular user Houston, TX, USA 188 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-07 18:49, warep wrote: The sleights were invisible when he performed them the first time. The problem is now whenever someone spreads 4 cards out in Ascanio fashion then these lay people will instantly think: Oh - he has a <secret edited out to prevent exposure>. Prior to the performance the audience suspected foul play, after all it is just magic. After the performance and explanation then the audience knows what to look for next time.
Practice what you present.
Present what you practice. |
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NeoMagic Inner circle I have... 2017 Posts
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I too don't agree with exposure, although having looked at the video, I'd say it is nearer to "dazzling the audience" given the speed of the demonstration/explanation.
And given that rick, by his own admission, couldn't remember all the sleights shown - and he's a magician - how much less will a lay audience have remembered? I'm always reminded of something Derek Dingle said in a Genii interview published shortly after his death: "I don't think any exposure over the years has had a detrimental effect on magic. If you expose something, magicians think of something else to replace it. For instance, there's a Svengali Deck on the market that's on TV a lot called 'TV Magic Cards'. People have probably been buying that deck in hundreds of thousands all over the world for the last 50 years. I guarantee you that any magician can fool an audience with that deck. Just knowing a secret is not the big thing about magic; presentation, the way you do it, is the important thing." (Genii magazine, May 2004, p.47)
See and download my latest free card-suits-themed desktop wallpaper | HERE
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warep New user 13 Posts
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Quote:
After the performance and explanation then the audience knows what to look for next time. Yes I understand what you mean now: If the same audience watches the exact same trick next time, they will know what's really going on. I never thought about it that way. |
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kammagic Inner circle 1304 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-07 18:59, NeoMagic wrote: Everyone needs to listen to Mr. Dingle. I remember the day after the Street Magic Secrets Revealed show aired I had some customers telling me they know how I do all my tricks. I did one of the card tricks the show exposed and their reaction was "Wait a minute that's not how they did it on the show!" actually it was exactly how they exposed it on the show the night before. Showing a layman some moves is not exposing how magic works. |
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magician8 Veteran user 383 Posts
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Any exposure is wrong, even such a minor one, it is in fact destroying something many people have worked for and doing it with no reason, he had no reason to reveal the names of the sleights.
Making someone look bad doesn't make you look better, he should know that. 8 |
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kammagic Inner circle 1304 Posts
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Quote:
On 2008-05-07 18:53, rick727 wrote: Magicians give explanations all the time. Example: If I shake the cards the reds and blacks separate like oil and water. Layman know its not the shaking that did the magic. So why should they believe he is telling the truth when he tells them we hold a break, we count them like this ...blah, blah, blah Most layman are thinking "Yeah right Circus boy. Sure...that's how it works. You can't give away secrets you'll be arrested by the magic police. Your just making this up." The odds are they will not even believe he is telling the truth. Everyone is making way too much out of this. This guy is not hurting anyone with this routine. |
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Posted: May 7, 2008 04:14 pm 