Can I use that? (It is a one-liner).

Well... yes, that one you can.

Artistic? So there have never been any magicians or comedians who use one liners you would call artistic? I think a few may disagree with that.

I love when people use the word artistic. After all it is subjective. LOL.

Well, if they disagree, they are wrong.
Peace

Nothing like deluding oneself for the sake of art.

Someone said: Brevity is the soul of wit (I don't care who, he had it published and I stole it). If you cannot be brief, you may just be boring. Of course I won't go to weddings or funerals because the guy just won't shut up.

I think we should steal everything and have a new term. Not steal. If someone who is a magician, or comedian comes up with a great premise, why shouldn't I benifit?

I havn't put in any work, I havn't done anything, but don't I deserve to benifit from the blood sweat and tears anyhow? How selfish are these creators who want to keep all this to themselvs?

It gets me so mad when guys do that. If anyone thinks if it then it becomes public domain. That is my view.

What if I steal it before you even have the chance to think of it? I mean you would probably have thought of it eventually, so it should be yours.

I think you should always steal from people if your bigger or faster than them. Just a matter of professional pride.

Absolutly. I was just about to say that.

I've never stolen a one liner from another magician that George Schindler didn't steal first. I know because I steal most of my one liners from George. Besides, I've never told an old joke, they were all brand new when I first heard them.

Mr. Bill- what do you mean my logic is flawed? You mean to tell me that if some guy like Sankey, or Hobson, or someone else charges me 25 bucks for a video on the "Egg Bag" I am not allowed to use the material on the video? I just PAID FOR IT. IF THEY WANT TO KEEP IT THIERS, THEN THEY SHOULDN'T SELL IT. I am not talking about recording some performer off tv, or grabbing something off of thier "promo tape". I am talking about the "teaching" type of instructional video that you buy from a magic shop- the kind L&L Publishing produces. If you buy that video, then everything on it is now yours. A performer is forfeiting his exclusive rights to those tricks, jokes, routines, and material the second he releases it to the public on a DVD for sale. If you don't want others doing your material, then don't go around and do lectures, sell books, and sell videos. I hate it when these greedy performers want to sell you a book, but tell you that you can't use the material in the book (Bruce Cervon comes to mind. They can't have it both ways- they either keep the material to themselves, or sell it to the public.
The one thing I will agree on is that is most cases, if you just copy someone else's material, you are then just a "carbon copy" and probably will never do it is well as the originator. But as a matter of ethics- NO- they sold it to you, if you want to use, you are entitled to it. In a business where the performer has little to zero legal grounds on thier intellectual property, they should either "put up or shut up" when it comes to selling thier material on video.

I often use Richard Sanders' "remememorize" word when telling spec to remember and memorize the card she or he picks. Always get a laugh. Thanks Richard!

Again, we are not talking legalities here, just ethics. I was talking both performance and teaching videos as you didn't limit in your original statement. Even so, if we are talking about educational videos there still are ethical boundries to consider.

1. The performance part of the video is sometimes to show the effect. Sometimes some inventers ask others not to use their material and that these are just for demo purposes only. Ethically it should be correct to follow the wishes of the educator.

2. Even though you are being taught methods and psychologies, you may be only taught these for knowledgeable purposes only. Again the educator reserves the right (ethically) to limit the use.

3. Ethically there is a flaw in modern society in the value of information. People feel if they buy (or even worse...copy, download..) music then they have the right to use that material as they wish. The same goes with movies, ebooks, and so on. People disregard copyright, public performance laws and restrictions.

4. Buying a video gives you rights to the video itself (the actual thing you hold in your hand), not the actual material contained therein unless specified by the artist/creator. If you were to purchase the material it would cost a great deal more than $25.00. Have you ever paid somebody to write a script? Not cheap.

I would seriously rethink your stance. Often when purchasing anything, you may have limitations that come along with said purchase. You may buy a house with the understanding that it is a heritage home and renovations can only be done a certain way. The house belongs to you, but with purchasing you understood and agreed to the limits set out by the seller.

You can't lump every video/teaching tool together. Each one has to be handle differently according to agreements/restrictions set out on each. Some allow everything to be used, others don't.

Live long and ethical

Well to be serious for a second, why use lines and things that you did not come up with as they don't fit the personality of the worker?

What you mean actually to take pride in your work? Pffftttt!

Mr. Bill, I cannot disagree with you more. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
The "educator" loses his right to the material when he sells it to the consumer.
Here is the only "ethical restriction": Don't want others doing your material? Then don't sell it on a DVD.

I was under the impression when you buy an effect that the rights to use the patter is also included. I normally use my own patter and one liners after ive learned the effect useing the patter supplied. I think if the magician that put out the dvd had a problem with you using his patter and jokes he would clearly tell you so.

Scott

What was I thinking?


Now mind you I do agree with you guys. When you sell things, you have no room to complain that someone is using the stuff. No doubt sold is sold. I agree.

I also think that it is not too smart to use things you purchase word for word. (Vanishing Bandanna comes to mind).

So I think yep sold is sold and that nobody should complain when they see things used they sell. But, I am disappointed when people use things word for word which leave no consistency of character.

In my DVD on the Egg Bag, I very specifically state, "You are buying the bag, the eggs and the moves. . . . but not the routine (patter, theme, etc.). I state that you need to find your own routine. My routine is my routine.

Now, Mr. Rory, what happens when your are confronted with that?

Will you insist on being a lip-sync performer and sit content on your laurels?. . . . mouthing the words to someone elses voice? Or will you attempt to contribute an original stroke of the brush to donate to the world of entertainment and to use your own brain to think up something on your own?

Rory, your arguements are too broad as you are still (maybe unintentionally) saying that if you buy a dvd (any...including performance) that you have a right to that material. You can't have your cake and eat it too. And again, stop referring to legality issues. Jeff above may not have a legal leg to stand on (I don't really know the extent of the law in matters such as those), but the ethics are clearly defined. He is stating the routine is the performance part and specifically asks others not to use it. So can you still ethically sit there and say it's alright to steal his material. Remember that we are talking ethics, not legalities.

I do agree that a performer runs the risk when they put something out for others to view, whether it be performance only or a teaching video, of somebody copying their stuff. This is why I took my video of my foottwisting down and am not releasing it (among other reasons). Every creator of instructional videos are aware of the risks of unethical people. Many still take that risk and should be applauded and given much respect because of that.

mrbill and jeff, is that clearly stated on the cover of the DVD?