There's a lot of "pack-small, play-big" tricks out there for gospel magicians, but what about illusions with some sort of message. Even if it isn't about God, what are some good illusions with worth-while messages? (Don't do drugs, no violence, etc.)

I was just talking with a dear friend last night about the "problem" this kind of field in performance has... most performers being more concerned about the message and getting more tithes into the plate than production value, quality routines/equipment, etc.

I know that sounds very crass, but it's true. Very, very few "Christian" performers or those doing "message based" programs, deliver a show that is informative as well as entertaining e.g. EDUTAINMENT as those in the trade would call it.

Why is this the case?

Christian performers in general, have only had some "changes of position" in the past few years e.g. rock and rap type artists that are "breaking the rules" and reaching the kids. When magicians involved with said sect, start following suit and start giving the kids what they want... the kind of
"entertainment" feel they are now patronizing (HINT: over 65% of the kids involved in today's Goth subculture consider themselves Born Again Christians... they watch Buffy, Angel and all those other
"evil, satanically influenced shows" and wear black, piercings, tats, etc. yet, most are Straight Edged kids... THE MORAL OF THIS STORY... give the kids the theatrical violence, blood, gore and spectacle they want with the message subtly set within that context.)

Like I told my friend, give them the entire Crucifixion experience and make it more brutal than Richardi's Buzz Saw routine but, follow it up by using a Flying system, some intense lighting technology and showing the Accession with "vanish" via the brilliant light, as described in the Bible. Use magic technology for "Feeding The Multitudes" (it can be done) and of course the Water to Wine thing but GO ALL OUT... not this petty U.F. Grant straight from the magic shop and Disney polished JUNK currently sold as
"Gospel Magic"

It's simple business logic. If you don't give the consumer what they want, you will fail. Thus, the time has come to make this kind of magic a bit more interactive, real, and aligned to the market you are trying to reach e.g. When in Rome...

I realize you're but a youngster Justin, but these are the things we all need to think about IF we honestly want to reach "them" vs. the "choir"... when you do all that goodie-two-shoes &$^) all you are doing is preaching to the choir... get a bit dirty and ride on that edge between the light and darkness, and you will achieve the kind of goal you seem to be after.

Best of luck!

justinflom,
I'm a Christian magician and I'm guilty (and will remain so) of putting the message before the effect. That's what Gospel magic is all about, the message. Emulating miracles of the Bible would IMHO tend to degrade the miracles themselves. That kind of dilutes the message. Thus the magic, the message and the presentation all become pointless. For more in depth on Gospel Magic check out "The Good News Section"
http://www.themagiccafe.com/archive1/vie......&439


As for the original question. Silk magic with colors representing Bible principles go over very well. Red for the Blood, White for Purity, Christ or Cleansing, Black for Sin and Death etc.

As for illusions with a positive message not Biblically aligned. Silks, Color Changes, MisMade Flags, POW-MIA Flag Productions, Banner Productions and anything else can be made to have a positive message. Your only limits are your imagination. Figure out the story you want to tell, decide what effects you need to emphasize the story then tailor the presentation to fit. Remember, magic is not the method but the presentation.

Not to be slanderous or disrepectful Rob, but you just proved my point in spades... until this kind of limited mold is broken, the commercial/consumer potential of a hard-core Christian based magic show/Illusion Experience cannot be achieved. "Playing it safe" with silks and ropes has been done to death since the 1700s. It's great if you want to preach to the choir but not when you want to reach the people...

Justin... forget about the magic side for a minute and invest in classes, books, etc. in marketing. Learn how to frame and package the product (you and your show) then look at how to place that essence into what you're doing.

You may want to touch base with THEDEAN @ KJMagic... he's a Christian minister and awesome marketing guru for commercial magic.

Again... best of luck!

Our viewpoints will remain different. I don't feel any limitations and I don't think I just preach to the choir. You seem to be missing, IMHO, what the point of Gospel magic is. It's not about a commercial product. It's about the message.

Lose sight of the message and you're no longer doing Gospel magic, you're performing a show. There is a difference. Where is the commitment, to the message or to the magic? The answer to that is where our viewpoints differ.

After re-reading the "original question", our different viewpoints are not relevant. It wasn't about Gospel magic. Let's not turn this simple question into a debate on Gospel magic. My apologies for getting off-topic. The original question was


To answer the question and get back on topic, I'll stick by my original response,



"Anything" seems to leave room for anything from "101 Simple Tricks with a TT" to "How are we going to get the helicopter onto the stage?" Start with an idea, weigh it against your audience, come up with a plotline, write your script, practice.

:wavey: justinflom,
It's your message, what do you want to say?

We'll try and help you with a plotline or even a presentation if you wish.

Darmoe is making a point(s) about how to package and market a message. And they are reasonable hints and worthy of consideration. And are appreciated.

But I was disappointed that the suggestions followed such questionable, accusatory generalizations.

I have a difficult time accepting most generalizations, and these are particularly disconcerting, because they seem to me, to be uncomfortably like a subtle attack on Christian performers. No matter how they were intended.

But in fairness, maybe I missed the "facts" or sources behind the assertions that:

Darmoe Says:
"most performers being more concerned about the message and getting more tithes into the plate than production value, quality routines/equipment, etc.
I know that sounds very crass, but it's true."

"Very, very few "Christian" performers or those doing "message based" programs, deliver a show that is informative as well as entertaining e.g. EDUTAINMENT as those in the trade would call it. "

End Darmore Quote:

I think this is a great topic started by Justin Flom, and some of Darmoe's
"suggestions" are worthy of note, but I am concerned that statements like "most... this" and they "always... that" are not productive without support. And when they cast a negative impression without evidence of truth, I have to ask; what is the basis for them?

Good magic and "values based" presentations of magic effects can be discussed without this sort of "negative, and even inflamatory" foundation.

Darmoe, I hope now that you do not feel attacked, as I am simply trying to understand your statements. If the stated circumstances are true, they are indeeed ***ing and of concern to all Christian Performers. And if hard evidence exists to support them, then it serves all to make it available. Do you agree?

Thanks for your efforts to contribute to the discussion of this topic. I know that I for one, will be anxious to read of your additional comments, and the contributions of others to this thread.

BroDavid

Frankly, I have never really embraced the concept of "Gospel Magic". I know that the Gospel magicians believe they are using the magic to help convey the message, but I'm inclined to believe that is actually just an excuse to have the fun of performing.

After all, an important aspect - though hardly the most important one - of magic is to fool your audience, is it not? So, IF you are emulating the miracles of Jesus Christ, AND you adequately fool your audience, aren't you suggesting that you possess powers SIMILAR to Christ? Worse yet, might you be suggesting that Christ's miracles were really just a bunch of parlor tricks?

So let's say you're NOT turning water into wine or doing the ol' "Multiplying Loaves" routine... Instead, let's say you're using three colored balls that represent the Trinity and a black one that represents satan; again, if the magic fools, do you REALLY think the message is remembered over the act? I personally don't think so.

I think that if the magic is stunning then the message will be misinterpreted or lost; and if the magic ISN'T stunning, then you have no business sullying the Gospel with your cheesy act. That's what I think.

There, I said it. Let the flaming of the heretic begin...

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

That's exactly the point. Very Well Spoken!

Keeping the message first is easy, not diluting the message is where the challenge is. A respectful Gospel routine is probably one of the most challenging aspects of magic I have dealt with. In my clowning and magic acts I only have to worry about my image and what I portray. In the Gospel magic arena I firmly keep in mind what I'm trying to convey as well as whose image I'm representing.

Telling someone the story of Christ with your heart and mouth while deceiving their eyes with your hands is a very daunting task. To dilute the message is to waste their time, my time and God's time. IMHO, That is the fine line we walk as Christian performers. I don't care if my change bag effect doesn't impress my fellow magicians. They are not my target audience. My target audience is someone that needs to hear the message I have to bring. If they listen with their hearts while I'm distracting their eyes then my task is done. If not, I need to adjust my routine.

If the magic and the performance ever become more important to me than the message, I'm hanging up my silks for good.

Interestingly enough, that is exactly why I gave up magic about ten years ago.

I was doing "gospel magic" and taking all the Glory for myself. The message was lost in my prideful seeking and acceptance of all the honors and applause.

Once convicted, I simply put it all aside.

And frankly, I never missed it, until someone gave me an idea of a different way to use magic - not by entertaining and preaching to the choir (I still refuse Church performances and recommend others who do it very well) because what I do is different, and how I use magic is different.

Now, what was this thread about? Oh, yes, about doing message based stage performances. Duane Laflin certainly has some nice material on the subject of say no to drugs, but I know that Justin knows that.

BroDavid

BroDavid

Yes, I do "generalize" and in all truth, I didn't mean what I said to come across in a negative tone... unfortunately, I have some serious bias when it comes to all aspects of
"Organized" anything, but especially religion (and plese don't go there...) Let's just say I've seen the "big guys" and how they operate behind the scenes and away from the cameras; Andre Crouch; JD Sommers; Swaggart; and a ton of others... though I do know there are some "honest" people out there in this business, I've not had many a good experience around most bearing a Christian label due to my beliefs and life-style vs. their opinions.

Let's just say I know God in my own way, it is all encompassing and far too phenomenal to be exclusive to any one group and has never stopped amazing me.

Getting back to the issue however... I fully support "teaching" (for lack of a better term) through Magic. I do so through my shows and even my writings. I think my point/perspective on this particular issue is that Gospel based magic needs to come into (at minimum) the latter half of the 20th century... when a performer can deliver a powerful message via high caliber production value that reaches in and grabs hold of the public's heart and mind (like a Speilberg film) then "the message" sinks in and, over time, manifests a difference in each person's attitude and actions.

I don't hide the fact that I'm not a Christian... yet I can appreciate the production value and message found in a pagent like the Christmas show @ the Crystal Cathedral in California... it's an awesome and inspiring production. It is also a perfect example as to where we, as performers of Gospel/Message based magic, need to go.

Contrarily... Rob's perspectives, though very dated, can work if "Packaged" properly... instead of being a magician, why couldn't the performer dress in Bible period garb and be a storyteller using more or less the same material but weaving the tales into each bit... suddenly "the same old thing" is given a face-lift that attracts people and stimulates their attention and curiosity... all that was done was the simple addition of some theatrics.

With this in mind, why couldn't Moses himself (the mage in character) tell and enact his tale... the KJ Snow Storm system could even bring the Manna from Heaven to fill the entire chapel... tell me who, upon witnessing such a thing, is going to forget the experience or the message

Anywho... I've been working with several individuals lately on this particular theme... I'm even pulling together a booklet dealing with "The Seven Deadly Sins" that should prove interesting.

I'm not here to antagonize, just inspire some creative thought that will, if applied (even at the most minute level) carry what has been done for so long, ten-thousand miles further down the road.

Best of luck to all!

Thanks for clearing that up, Darmoe!

Your self admitted bias did seem to steer your generalizations, and I simply wanted to understand if you actually realized what had happened, and how it really could be (and was) Interpreted as an attack on Christians. I am pleased to see that you were open enough to express that motive.

While many do not fully realize it, all of us are constantly acting as teacher in some arena. (I won't go there, as there is too much to say, about models, roles, and mentors, and the lack thereof)

But, as performers, we have the public's eye in numerous "teachable moments." I think that this also places a burden on us, to teach what is good, and right. (Or at least that is what I think.)

Clearly, you see things differently than Rob and most Christians, as to our life role. And of course, you could not understand, as it seems like foolishness to everyone but us.

The "performances" that describe could indeed deliver a memorable message. But they could be done easily by any theater group with house effects. You don't need a magician to make it snow on stage. So, IMHO, the Magician would be excess baggage for those type of performances.

As for what you believe, or don't believe, about God and Jesus Christ; that is up to you.

I also do not seek to antagonize, and in fact, it looks like we have similar motives; To get people to think independently.

In my view, the problem is not that too many people think wrongly. The problem is that too many people just don’t think at all.

Einstein once said (paraphrased) "that the definition of Insanity, is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting a different result."

And I agree that we must be creative and seek new methods to deliver our message. I do not agree, however, that the reason that we have to do it - "is because it hasn’t worked.", actually I think that about a dozen guys speaking the truth in love, has gone pretty far. Rather, I believe it simply because God has given us the gift of thinking minds and creativity. And we should use those gifts to His Glory.

BroDavid

Darmoe Said


To a great extent I very much agree with you. In a theatrical environment, effects up to and including loaves and fishes, water to wine and even crucifixion (gory with appropriate pyrotechnics for weather etc.) / ascending to Heaven. The sky is no limit. If I were helping in the planning of a "Passion Play" or "Christmas Program" then yes by all means "GO ALL OUT" (budget permitting).

CONVERSLY:

If I'm trying to share or witness as the story teller, then I scale my presentation accordingly. Magic and a bit of misdirection serve only as the exclamation points in this venue. I don't want to "blow them away" with my performance. I want to bring them in with my story.

Quote;
While many do not fully realize it, all of us are constantly acting as teacher in some arena. (I won't go there, as there is too much to say, about models, roles, and mentors, and the lack thereof)
[/quote]

This is such a powerful and true statement... A Course In Miracles teaches that "We are all students, healers & teachers..." I believe that and support that concept 110%

What Rob is missing however, is how the donning of a robe and walking into the local park doing the same basic things he's doing right now, attracts and holds an audience vs. "doing the same old thing with the same old approach" I guess one way of putting it is the fact that people don't want to be lectured or preached at... the majority in the world (the people I think you want to reach out to) honestly don't give a gosh darn about your testimony and thus, you need to create some kind of "honey" misdirection) to attract the "bees" otherwise you are only reaching the people that already support the product you are trying to sell and not bringing in new patrons for the boss... few salesmen keep their jobs doing such a thing, let alone their enthusiasm for it.

In my shows, whether it's illusions or mentalism, I have always strove to bridge the gap in people's beliefs and views on key issues-especially the conflict that exists between Christianity and all other world religions (sorry, but you all are known for extreme acts of terror and are feared by most of the world's population... as well as loathed... but we needn't go there.)

Due to the nature of my shows, my personal reputation, etc. I tend to draw in a lot of Pagan/New Age types who, in my opinion, are just as biased and extreme in certain things than you and yours. However, I try to show the parallels we share, I try to get the
"shut eye" to "open their eyes" and realize the difference between real and fake psi/paranormal manifestations & business practices, I try to help people see and understand the warning signs around potentially dangerous cults (especially those using a Christian veneer... as did Jim Jones) I try to express and help my audiences experience the omnipresence and expansive/all-inclusive essence of "GOD" and thus, redefine their relationship with such.

Bottom line is, what I'm sharing here is exactly what I do and have used in shows for over 15-years and it works! It can be applied to any given message, we simply need to give ourselves permission to step outside the box, as they say in today's world... to escape the cyclic loop we keep telling ourselves is "the right way to do it and this is why..."

No one remembers the performer or the message of someone that is "the same" but they remember almost every rebel and every act that has dared to be different, agressive, and in empathy with them. If you doubt what I'm saying, look at history and consider the facts. Jesus himself stood out because he was a different kind of rebel that Rome, nor the Jewish authorities knew how to effectivly combat... Moses was a hot head that frequently cursed the God of his heart... almost every single "hero" of the Bible was an outspoken rebel and nonconformist and thus, we find the examples that worked and the approach we are trying to talk ourselves into believing is wrong, and dosen't work.

Well... that's my observation at least. I hope at least one person reading this wieghs what is being said and takes it upon themselves to dare to be different, to step forward and deliver the kind of program people will be healed by. Such daring is not for everyone however... that's why it works!

Darmoe,
I see what you are saying. In many respects you are right on target. Unfortunately, you missed my point entirely. As a clown, I'm very aware of the value of proper costuming and theatrics. I can see where putting on period garb and performing may be very edutaining as you call it. What I'm saying is I try to weigh each and every aspect of every performance to target my audience as accurately as I possibly can.

There is definitely a place for the type of performance you mention. I have used period costume and some magic to share my message but I've found that sometimes the magic, the costume and yes even the wording of my message detracts from the overall ministry. That's when I adjust

Our differences of opinion are squarely based on the venue. What you describe works wonders for a park, youth camp and even street fests. I've used very much what you describe for these audiences. When I was helping out at a youth camp several years back, I performed bigger sleights and illusions often and in several venues but, not in the sanctuary. What works best for me in there, is the simple exclamation point type of storytelling. Otherwise it's just a show, nothing more. "Nice Show" is the worst possible thing someone could say to me after a Gospel routine. The best thing someone could say is, "I understand what you were saying, could we talk about it some more."

In nose and in face (clowning) I overemphasize everything. It's the nature of my clowning. I do use some of my Gospel routining occasionally as a clown but not very often. With clowning, I'm trying very hard to be the center of attention, the focus, if you will, of everyone's attention. With Gospel magic, I try very hard not to draw the attention to me but to the message.

Many Christians do not feel magic is appropriate at all. I'm working to get them to think outside the box. To blow them away with a theatrical routine could very well countermand the paradigms I'm working so hard to shift them away from. As a Gospel magician I have to keep in mind I have 2 distinct audiences within any group; those who have heard the message and those that are here to hear the message. I want to be entertaining to those who have heard and at the same time inspirational to those that are listening for the first time. I think we very much see "eye to eye". I am taking your suggestions to heart. I just know that simple, is what works best for me and my target audiences at this time, when doing Gospel magic.

Rob

Thanks for your explanation... I fully support your position (as expressed)

BTW... one of the best Christian performers I ever saw was a clown... he was great! Not one person had anything negative to say about him, his act or the message he was putting out (which is rather unusual in today's world)... be darned if I can remember his name... saw him in the Bay area.

Rob, you have identified the heart of the matter. It is just a show, but a show with a different message. In my opinion, magic is just another branch of the theater. A good magician employs the techniques from various parts of the theatrical world. Lighting, sound, acting, set design, costuming, a good story line, etc. Obviously the parts that you use will depend upon the venue and audience you are performing for but each of these are a tool that can be utilized to more effectively present your message. In my opinion too many magicians, both gospel and non-gospel, do not take these points into consideration and wind up relegating themselves and their trick, and message to mediocraty.

Darmoe is correct in that all magicians, gospel or otherwise, need to examine if they are reaching their target audience in an engaging and effective way.



Rob, you might try presenting what you do as theater. Most people who have objections against magic do not have objections against theatrical productions, such as those of gargantuan proportions at the Crystal Cathedral or something smaller like a youth group utilizing a skit. The key is being honest about your abilities. For example few people really believe that the guy playing the part of Joseph in the Christmas play is really Joseph. Few people would accuse him of lying to get his point across. Magic is just a tool. As long as you don't represent that you have powers and abilities that you don't. i.e. represent your abilities as supernatural you should be fine.

Darmoe, I have appreciated your input on this subject.

After reading everyones comments I feel I should make a comment.

1. It is good that if you do Gospel Magic to question yourself and your motives. This shows you have not let traditions of men influence the most important part of the message. You are staying focused on the goal.

2. It is not easy to determine a motivation so it would not be good to judge (Matt 7:1) ones motives without examining the fruit of his labor.

3. The message always comes before the magic. I would say that this is the motive of all who have responded. Matt 4:4

4. Reading the Bible is seeking for truth and the truth shall set you free.

Not all people will understand these words. Some of us will plant seed and others water while still others will harvest.

Dolini

I too, appreciate Darmoe's comments and contributions to this thread. It has made for some very interesting discussion and soul-searching.

Firstly, I'd like to thank everyone for their kind accolades... just goes to show that being the devil's Advocate can sometimes bring about some positive resolve.

Yes, I do look at Gospel based "shows" just as I would any other show in which I'm putting out a "message" e.g. product, service, company name, etc.

Why?

Pardon me for bringing this to your attention, but, the majority of the "good Christian" acts I've worked with over the years had worse language and manners than anything I've witnessed anywhere else... in short, I think the majority of the "big names" in the Gospel industry are bigger frauds than the Pet Psychic.

Anyhow, there is a reason to what I want to say here and it's not "bashing" your beliefs or position of faith. Rather, it is to encourage you to "see" and "hear" what I'm trying to say. That is, if you are wanting to reach that side of the populace that sits outside your own choir, so to speak.

Sorry, but to create a high caliber production that works large theater settings or community Civic Auditoriums that can, almost in a subtle manner, deliver your message, will reach more people due to its appeal, than a show that "puts the message first."

To coin a phrase, you will attract more bees with honey than vinegar. For the larger majority of people in today's world anything remotely related to Church or Christianity isn't only a "dirty word" and "tabboo", it strikes fear, anger, angst, and panic in their hearts. Let's face it, both Catholic and Protestant aspects of your path have their bloody histories in both, recent and distant past circumstances.

Why do I bring this out? You ask.

Confession is good for the soul... that is to say, if you were to admit the short comings of your particular path, the "human" side of it that is/was corrupt and thru that, reveal the positive side of what has evolved, you will be able to generate a stronger, less suspicious patronage that is not composed of those "already sold" on what you are putting out.

The movie "Last Temptation of Christ" set world wide records in attendance because of the controversey set around it by those picketing it. Millions, who would not have gone to see it (because it was a Jesus movie) did. Of those that went, most acknoweledge that the film depicted a Jesus that was "human" and believable... many renewed their "focus" and testimony towards the church and more!

I hope I'm making sense here... I know in my experience the less I try to "preach" to my audience when I perform, the more people show interest and sincerity in what I'm representing and sharing. The result is a domino type effect that brings support to workshops, seminars, etc. that I'm doing in a given area by people that otherwise wouldn't be there (many, ardent skeptics when it comes to psi type work). Bottom line, I believe if it works for me (and others) at such a powerful level, it will probably work for you in what you are wanting to accomplish in your shows & programs.

Best of luck!

It's a war out there. Some talk, some fight.

Some are only fit to be in their specific environment.(desk sargents) Some are made to fight in the trenches. (foot soldiers) some are made for mechanised warfare. (tankers)


There are some that are fit to to jump out of helicopters behind enemy lines. Their job is to make a mess of the enemy's holdings, spread disent in the enemy's ranks, and even to use the enemy's own resources to open holes in the front lines and allow their own comrades to advance from the rear.

Some times they rescue downed pilots, who are in hopeless situations......Who will be the next downed pilot, and who is going to go in and get them?

Its your job to know your job. Its your job to support every other soldier, regardless of rank, branch or personal preference.
Failure on either point makes you the enemy.

Sounds kind of harsh but this is the bottom line.