First of all, I apologize if my post has already been done. I have read most of the posts here, but there are too many to read all of them. I am new to dove magic and have never performed before with them. What DVDs would you recommend for someone who is new to it? I want to know as much as I can about proper care and handling, as well as the best harnesses, pockets, and holders. Information about dove training is also essential for me. What is the best type of dove to use? Can you substitute a dove with another type of bird? I know I have a lot of questions, but I want to get as much information as I can before incorporating doves in my shows. All information and leads would be greatly appreciated.

Dan, all of these questions have been asked before, but I'll try to summarize a bit.

The first things you need to think about are "Do I have the time to take care of and work with the birds everyday," and "Do I have the space to keep them?"

Initial training should take about 6 weeks or more for each bird, but you must continue to work with them everyday after that. You must have the time. Dove cages must be kept clean all the time.

A cage for one or two birds should be no less than 24" x 24". They need room to stretch their wings and move around.

As for books and DVDs, here's a link that specifically lists most of the resources that are available. My personal opinion is that you should start with Tony Clark, Andy Amyx, Encyclopedia of Dove Magic, General Grant, and Greg Frewin.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......3&27

There are a variety of breeds of doves available. The white Java and ringneck are very popular breeds. The audience doesn't know the difference. Pure white doves are not essential either. Amos Levkovitch uses several that are actually colored like dalmatian dogs. They are grey and white. I have several that are brown and white.

Most pockets are basically the same. They are made from slick material to make steals quick and smooth. Each manufacture has their own design, but they are basically the same; a flat, rectangular bag to hold the dove under your coat. It's not difficult to make your own once you get the concept down.

There are as many variations of bags as their are dove workers. Everyone has their own favorite type. It's all a matter of preference. I like General Grant's, but others prefer Tony Clark's or Shimada's for example. Some closure types are Velcro, snaps, zippers, and hinges. They all work, and it's just a matter of what you like.

Doves are seed eaters, so you need small bird seed or, specifically, Dove Mix. They eat about a tablespoon full of seed a day. They must have clean water at all times. In addition to the seed, they must have grit to digest their food, and they enjoy treats like leaf lettuce, apples, hard boiled eggs (including the shells), peanut butter, frozen peas, and millet.

I hope that answers some of your questions. Feel free to ask more. Most of us are more than willing to help you out.

Thanks, Dave!
You're right, most of my questions have probably already been answered in other posts. I will continue to read the other posts under "Polly wants a cracker". However, you have lead me in the right direction concerning DVDs, which is a tremendous boost. Thanks!

I live in an area where doves are hard to find. I've been thinking about purchasing from the Internet. Is this a good idea, or should I continue to look for a local breeder? I'm concerned about how they may ship them to me. Has anyone every bought one online before?

Most breeders and magicians ship their doves via the post office. This is very reliable, inexpensive, and safe for the birds. There is currently some problems in regards to the type of container that must be used, but the seller should know about that. If you are Internet buying from a breeder or magician there shouldn't be a problem, but I would shy away from purchasing from someone who is just selling their birds. A breeder and a magician will have taken care of their birds, whereas you won't know how anyone else has treated their animals.

I would continue to look for a local breeder. You may want to contact the American Dove Association. They have breeders all over and could probably steer you in the right direction.

The best advice I can offer is to watch every video of professional dove workers, whether it's teaching or performance only. Purchase all the store-bought dove magic you can and work it into an act. Watch what the pros do, but don't copy them as far as the same effects and the same order in which they perform them.

Think of a story line - silks become doves - one becomes two - one vanishes and reappears - they all disappear. Once you have your own storyline, the selection of effects will follow.

It's very true that Form Follows Function, whether you're manufacturing OR performing. Once you know what you want to do, then the challenge is to construct the best way to make it happen. It's also important for you to go first class. Garage made props usually don't look that great, and we as performers only rely on our image and our abilities as the basis to build a business.

Jay Leslie

Pretty good advice to watch all the vids you can. However, I wouldn't go out and buy every dove trick on the market. You'll be taking out a second mortgage on your house.

Watch the vids first, get an idea of what you would like to do, and then find the effects that accomplish that idea. If you buy everything that is out there, you'll be storing most of it. An average dove act is only 12 minutes or so, and you can only do just so many effects in that short a time. Quality is much more important than quantity.

I say you SHOULD buy every trick on the market...buy 2 if you can, so you have a backup...buy a dozen... Then you can be a dealer and, with all that knowledge, in a few years YOU will be the person WE will be buying dove tricks from.

OK, every trick is a little extreme...but that's the way some people roll (me). The price of the effect alone does not determine how well it works, but if you follow the principle of a splashy opening, then simple but effective tricks building up to the ultimate unforgettable conclusion, then you'll be in good company.

Most dove workers (as an example) would do a relevant trick between each production/vanish, as opposed to one production after another. AND the most important factor is not to rush the performance. New people always want to do things as fast as they can. Do great artists paint a canvas as fast as they can?

Video tape yourself from different angles, often - and review with the eye of a spectator. Try not to get your family involved, or the magic will be lost for them.

"Hey, dad... Is this better, or this??"
"I don't know, and it's way past your bedtime. Go to sleep."
"But I can't. I have to make this perfect."
"I'll give you perfect."

Sound familiar?

Once again, it is not necessary to go out and buy every, or even a lot of, dove tricks to develop a very good act. Watch the Tony Clark, General Grant, Andy Amyx, and Shimada videos, and I guarantee you can develop a 12 minute standard dove act for less than $200. Buy new effects as your act evolves.

Just to let you know, Jay, I'm a grown man. Thanks for the advice, though.

I'm not quick to learn a trick and then start performing it. There's a lot more than just learning how a trick is done. Because I'm a true lover of all animals, I would never put over the welfare of any animal for any trick. I know that I need to learn proper care and handling of doves first. I'm also aware that there is a lot of training involved. I don't see myself performing dove magic as soon as I get a dove, it may take a year or maybe longer. That's why I'm seeking all the advice I can get. I don't want to be wasting my money on wannabe magicians who put out videos/DVDs just to make a buck. I only want to learn from pros. There is so much information out there that it's hard to figure out which ones are good and which ones are not so good.

Thanks for your suggestions, Dave. I have found two books called "Encyclopedia of Dove Magic". One written by Marian Chavez, and another by Ian Adair. Which one is better? I have heard of Benny Chavez and Marian Chavez, but don't know if they are related.

Thanks, Dave, for your continued advice. What type of dove magic do you perform? This is an open question for everyone.

Dan, deciding between Marian Chavez and Ian Adair is difficult. I've had Adair's 4 volume set for a long long time, and I personally prefer it. Almost every possibility is covered. Some are old ideas that just need to be updated a little but provide a good foundation and will give you a good understanding of what can be done.

I do very little prop dove magic with the exception of doves to bunny, which I use sometimes. Most of my effects use body loads. I throw in some manipulation work and a few audience participation and silk effects.

My standard act is 14 minutes in length, but for some occasions I've included what amounts to a second 10 minute act, without doves, ending with a dove climax to bring it all together.

Wow, I've been searching everywhere for a Dove. Searched around locally, and even on the internet to no prevail. Does anyone know of a breeder that will ship to Canada, or know of a breeder in Canada?

Dan, have you tried the Canadian dove association? Here's a link to one of their pagers with a list of breeders that will ship to you. They might be able to get you in touch with a breeder in Canada as well.

http://www.dovepage.com/buy-a-dove/index.html

Dave...you are great! I had been searching and searching. Your link has helped a lot. I owe you much graditude!

No problem. Just send the check to..... Glad I could help.

I am somewhat interested in maybe beginning to add in some doves to my performance, and I have a few questions (probably ones I'm sorry for you having heard many times in the forum):
How long a day would you say maintenance and training takes per day?
If I would be able to work with them in the morning and afternoon/evening is that enough?
How much does it cost for maintenance?

Thanks!

Here's a recent thread with some costs associated with getting started in dove magic.

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......13&4

As for time per day to train, there is no set time. The more you work with the doves, the better. You should spend no less that 15 minutes at each session with the birds.

As I've posted many times before, make sure you get some instructional videos like Tony Clarks Unmasked and Andy Amyx's doves 101 before you even think about getting the doves. They pretty much explain everything you need to know. It's a big step to start working with doves and once you get them, you're stuck with them no matter what. If you are unprepared or decide that dove magic isn't for you, you can't just set the birds free. They can't survive in the wild so make sure you are ready before you start.