No I'm not trying to have fun, just trying to make a suggestion but guess that doesn't work.no harm done

Dakota Rose,

Thanks for helping some lucky recipient of your birds.


Bob,

I'm confused. Are you saying the new containers are "for the birds"? or are you saying they're not "for the birds"?

Send them by carrier pigeon! It's safer!

Bill,

I'm suggesting that the boxes are not "ProLife!"

Bob

Dakota, if you still have any doves for sale, I think Jay Mataloli might be looking for a set. Please PM me for details.
Dave

If these bio container cant even let the dove breath then whats the point of using it? Now heres my question.If this box is so dangerous to the doves why doesn't the post office know it is insufficient for the birds. I hope this bio box is not so dangerous becasue I am really looking forward to buying doves and getting it ship and with this problem it will probably not happen. So if these things are so dangerous I guess I should just wait until they remove this law. One last thing. I checked the post office website and didn't find anything about these new containers.

I don't have any dove stores or breeders that sell doves in my area and the only way for me to get them is to have them shipped. I care about the doves so I don't want any harm to them during the flight to my home.

Ricky, reread Bob's response above. You'll see that the post office uses Fed Ex as their carrier and the new box is not entirely a postal regulation. The purpose of the new box is to keep bird viruses from getting out into the air. The problem is that while it does do this, it also keeps fresh air from entering the box so the birds will not survive the trip. This appears to be a deal between vendor and the post office.

Bob is a lobbyist and you can be sure he is doing all he can to bring this to the foreground and get the regulation changed. At the present time, most post offices don't really know what they are supposed to do. They have been given conflicting information. Some think they can ship birds, others do not. Some think they need the new box, others do not. We're dealing with the government so don't expect a clear definition of this.

To be safe, most people have stopped shipping birds through the post office until this issue can be resolved. The alternative right now is to use the commercial airlines which as I mentioned before is about $120. Also, as Bob stated, UPS (United Parcel Service) has begun shipping birds but I'm not sure about their rates and since it is a new service, I'd rather wait and see how effective they are.

You said you are not near any stores or breeders but you have never actually told us where you are from. You did tell me you were in California but that's a big place. If you can narrow it down, some of us might be able to help you find someone close to you that raises doves.

On the other hand, it isn't entirely a terrible thing that you'll have to wait a bit before getting your doves. It will give you much more time to really study the resources that everyone has suggested and really get to know exactly what is involved and what you need to do. You can get your tux, pockets, harnesses all set up. Take a pair of gym socks and roll them into a ball approximately the size and shape of a dove and practice with that. Many of us have done that and still do. The advantage is that you get used to making the steals, can determine exactly where you want you pockets, and basically develope your entire act without ever touching a bird. This will save on wear and tear on the bird and improve your technique.

Once this new box regulation is lifted or you find a place to get your doves, you'll be ready to spend a lot of time training and bonding.

After reading Bob and Dave's comments about UPS now shipping birds I decided to call UPS for a rate quote. I was told that UPS does NOT ship birds. I even called UPS Corporate in Utah and they confirmed that UPS does NOT ship birds. So if Bob and Dave have confirmation to the contrary I would like to know the source.

I always ship my doves using Continental Airlines Cargo. Go here for info: http://www.continental.com/web/en-US/con......ult.aspx

Continental Cargo charges by weight of carrier, not by number of birds. Under 9 pounds will cost approximately $120 and over 9 pounds $140. So the more birds you are shipping the better the value. Continental Cargo ships airport to airport, so you have to deliver and pick-up at the airport. You can ship using a regular pet carrier, so NO special environmentally safe shipping "box" is needed. Also, weather (Heat or Cold) is NOT a factor as they don't leave the birds sitting outside exposed to the weather, instead they hold them in environmental controlled conditions. Continental Airlines is the absolute best airline to use when shipping any kind of pet. All shipping arrangements can be made by phone here:
Dedicated 24-hour Live Animal Desk (1.800.575.3335 or 281.553.5052)

Dovedaddy, I have never found Bob to be incorrect about things like this. This topic is mainly about those of us that raise doves for magicians trying to supply our customers. While continental may be an excellent carrier for live animals, and it would make sense to use them if shipping your own doves to a show location for example, it doesn't make sense to charge a customer $120 in shipping costs plus the cost of a pet carrier to get $20 worth of doves. Add in the inconvenience of driving to an airport and having the customer drive to an airport close to them, providing there is one, and you have a bad situation. Shipping charges with the post office were approximately $25 and most any cardboard box with air holes and properly identified as "live birds" was acceptable.


I received this message from UPS about 30 minutes ago:

Effective January 1, 2005, UPS will accept
live animals for U.S. domestic transportation between the 48 contiguous
states on a limited basis. This service is not offered to/from Hawaii,
Alaska, Puerto Rico or internationally.

Packages containing live animals must be prepared in accordance with
specific packaging requirements. Packages containing live animals must
provide for the basic humane care and safety of the animal during
transportation. Any package containing a live animal shall be considered
a perishable commodity and will be accepted for transportation solely at
the shipper’s risk for any damage or loss arising from the perishable
nature of the item. UPS shall not be liable for any special, incidental,
or consequential damages.

In the event a package containing a prohibited item is found in transit,
that package will be stopped at the UPS facility where discovered. UPS
reserves the right to appropriately dispose of the contents of the
package.

Endangered or Threatened Species

In addition to the enclosed list, any live animal that is an Endangered
Species is prohibited by UPS and will not be accepted for transportation.
Shippers must refer to the list posted on the U.S. Fish and Wildlife
Service Web site at:

http://endangered.fws.gov/wildlife.html#Species

Also, the Endangered and Threatened Wildlife and Plants 50 CFR 17.11 and
17.12, December 1999 at:

http://endangered.fws.gov/50cfr_animals.pdf


Service Type

Live animals will only be accepted for transportation when shipped via UPS
Next Day Air service, and such shipments will only be accepted Monday
through Thursday.


Packaging

Design and Construction of the Primary Container: All live animals offered
for transportation must be in a new box. Corrugated boxes must be
constructed of a minimum of 275 # bursting strength corrugated or 44 edge
crush test. It is recommended that any package containing animals
requiring moisture during transportation be constructed of water-resistant
material such as wax coated, wax impregnated, or plastic corrugated.
Minimal ventilation holes should be provided as necessary.

Internal Packaging and Other Considerations: Internal packaging materials
must be used based on the characteristics of the animal, taking into
consideration the necessary humane care for the animal while in
transportation. Lizards and geckos should be individually contained in
bags constructed of breathable material, such as burlap. Insects should
be contained in individual primary containers such as plastic jars with
ventilation. Fish must be double bagged in strong plastic bags with a
minimum thickness of 4 mils. Each primary bag should be approximately one
third full of water with the remainder filled with oxygen.

Additional Considerations: Additional components such as food, moisture,
and temperature controls should be added as necessary to provide a safe
environment during transportation. Additional cushioning should be added
to prevent movement of the primary containers or receptacles within the
outer box.


Accepted Live Animals

This is a comprehensive list of live animals accepted for transportation.
Shippers are prohibited from shipping any animal not listed here. The
following live animals are accepted for transportation unless poisonous,
venomous, and/or a Threatened or Endangered Species:

Amphibians (All): e.g., frogs, salamanders, toads
Crustaceans (All): e.g., crabs, lobsters, shrimp
Fish (All)
Insects (Limited to beneficial insects only): e.g., bees, butterflies,
lady bugs
Mollusks (All): e.g., clams, mussels, snails
Reptiles (Limited to the following):
Lizards: e.g., chameleons, geckos, iguanas, monitors
Turtles: freshwater turtles (except: snapping turtles), land tortoises,
sea turtles
Worms (All)

Please note that any animal not specifically listed on the accepted list
above is prohibited by UPS and will not be accepted for transportation.


Prohibited Live Animals

Live animals that are prohibited from being shipped and are not accepted
for transportation include, but are not limited to:

Any poisonous, venomous, or threatening animal
Any Threatened or Endangered Species
Arachnids: mites, scorpions, spiders, ticks
Birds
Crocodiles: alligators, caimans, crocodiles, gavials
Obnoxious Insects: flies, locusts, mosquitoes, termites, weevils
Mammals
Snakes (All): venomous or non-venomous

Note that this regulation was dated January 2005. Bob seems to think that an amendment has taken effect in October 2006. I'll have to leave that up to him to comment on.

Dovedaddy,

Backtracking on this from REUTERS may give you the help you seek. REUTERS does a good job of keeping up.

It is a matter of government contractors and their subcontractors.

(A strange parallel: Did you know that the Alabama Marine Police Division, a division of the Alabama Conservation Department, used to contract with the US Coast Guard to handle drug smuggling law enforcement on the Gulf of Mexico? Outsourcing government services is hardly new.)

Start here: (There may be a research report fee.)
REUTERS

6:12 a.m. August 1, 2006

BOSTON – Package-delivery company FedEx Corp. and the U.S. Postal Service Tuesday said they had renewed through 2013 an agreement for FedEx's FedEx Express unit to transport domestic mail by air.
The contract, expected to generate about $8 billion in revenue over its seven-year life span, calls for FedEx Express to transport about 4 million pounds of mail between U.S. airports each day.
The USPS advises that UPS will accept lives once they have their network in place. We anticipate this to begin mid to late September.


Enjoy the reading! It gives a whole new meaning to trivia!

Bob

I live in San Francisco california. Is there any dove breeders there,because all I found was a shop selling ring neck doves but they are like grayish and looks very unhealthy I don't even think they have seen sunlight in like forever.As for the alternative for that 100 doallar something airline,Thanks for suggesting but I'm not about to spend that much to get it shipped. I was just looking to contact Dakota Rose and just talk to him about this shipping thing. From what I understand of your guys post that ups and fed ex ships birds? I don't understand the mumble jumble that the shipping does.All I want is a way to get my doves shipped without any harm to them and at a low price that I can afford.I was thinking about 50 or 60 for two doves.Other then all that I have no clue what you guys are talking about. One more thing Dakota I would like to see whats up with your shipping now?please pm me or post here

Ricky, let's me try to make it clear for you. Dakota and the rest of us usually ship our birds through the post office at a cost of about $25 and they can ship in a plain cardboard box. We can usually ship up to 4 birds for that price. The new regulation now states that the birds must ship in this special new box but it is not safe for the doves so we have stopped shipping temporarily.

The post office gives the birds to Fed Ex to ship for them. According to UPS (United Parcel service) they do not ship birds but there is a report that they started doing so in October. That's one of the questions that is being researched.

Bottom line here is that basically we are not shipping any more doves until the regulation is changed.

Bob is working hard to get a resolution to repeal this new box requirement. Until then, the only choices you have are to pay the high rate on a commercial airline or find a supplier in your area.

You mentioned that you found a couple of ringnecks. Ringnecks come in all colors, I've had white ones, brown ones and grey ones. If you don't like the ones you found, why not ask the pet store owner where he got them from. It isn't a good idea to buy them from a pet store anyway but if he has a source, you could contact them directly. Here are a few sources in San Francisco that may be able to help you.

http://www.dovesusa.com/listings.htm

http://www.birdbreeders.com/BreederSearch.aspx?state=CA This one is a list of breeders in California. If you contact them, they may be able to help you.

http://www.doveline.com/ This one is for the American dove association. Contact them and they should be able to help you as well.

Thanks for the links Dave ,i will do a full check on the links when I get the time.I skimed through the links and I think I should contact the NNA and see what goes from there on.But it really seems that my options are to wait this out until it is sloved or until I find someone in my area. Also Do you think there is a estimate of time that this whole container thing will go into dust? There is a magic shop that I go to.The owner referred me to that pet shop. It had really everything at low prices ,cage and assercories and all but the birds there are kinda slugish looking.So ill try and call them up and see where they get their doves from. I also go to my local magic shop for advice. The shop keeper is really helpful and kind. And I think I'm going to check in with him and see if he knows any magician that sells doves.

Thanks for the help

No telling how long this situation will continue. We're all interested in it. You mentioned that the birds in that shop all looked sluggish. Exactly why we say not to buy your doves from a pet shop. You never know what you are really going to get.

Do you belong to any magic clubs like SAM or IBM in your area? Those are usually god places to find out about doves being available.

Nope, But isn't IBM (International Brotherhood of Magicians') and SAM I have no idea. I think I checked out the IBM website before and don't you have to pay to get in?

Posted: Nov 10, 2006 2:13pm

I'm going to check out the forums here about the IBM. It sounds interesting. And I see it is a affordable price to join. Since I'm a youth it makes it all better. There is a magic club I'm that gives discounts to items and letcures and all the monthy issue stuff. I'm going over to my local magic shop this week and well have a chat about the IBM subject and all. This is getting a little out of topic. I would really like to see a post by Dakota Rose and this issue. Both on the shipping of doves and I know he's a writer for the youth IBM.

I'm sure Dakota will respond. I just get here more often than he does. IBM is the International Brotherhood of Magicians and SAM is the Society of American Magicians. Both have a membership fee and you get a monthly magazine from each one. The IBM has local "rings" or clubs and the SAM has "Assemblies". If you can get to any of the those meetings, they are well worth it.

Sorry, I haven't responded. I'm just not sure what to do or think about all of this. Kinda over my head. If Mr. Scribner and Mr. Sanders have doubts about the safety of the birds, then I trust them completely. I'm not going to get the boxes and ship until I know that the birds will be safe.

I'll be collecting eggs this winter anyway, because the winter is too hard on the babies. I'll just wait to see what happens in the spring when the birds really start laying eggs.

When I have more babies and when I'm sure that shipping is safe, I'll post again on this subject.

My apologies to all those I promised babies to.

Dakota Rose

Hey Dakota,
Thanks again for shipping the babies. Looks like our timing was just right.
They are looking more beautiful with each passing day and are getting used to their surroundings and me.
Would you suggest a vitamin supplements at this time - if so what type?
Max

Hey Max,

Yeah, you got yours just in time.

There are powdered vitamins you can sprinkle on food and some liquid you can put in the water. Either one seems to be OK.

Glad the birds are doing great. Thanks for keeping me posted.

Dakota

Man, this is sad. I really hate that it has come to this. I do understand the concerns of the shippers, but they didn't offer a practical solution. It seemsthat the bio-box is problematic and could be easily fixed. Why can they not make a container with holes that will allow air in, but with a filter of sorts that will keep bacteria or viruses out. It seems to me that modifying the box in this way might be the easiest and most cost effective solution.

If I could not locate doves in my area I wouldn't mind paying the extra $20 for a box, + shipping cost ($25), plus the cost of the doves. However, I feel that $120 plus the inconvenience of shipping via the airlines is a bit much.

I hope this gets resolved soon. If anyone can do us any good lobbying for change it is Mr. Sanders! Bob, you better get to work, and I think you need to recruit Dave and take him along too! With the knowledge you two pocess about doves, something good will have to come of it!

Regan

I had to use a bio box to ship doves to Hawaii many years ago. The holes were covered with a 1/4" open cell foam and what appeared to be a plastic membrane.

I was assured that the membrane lets air through. My doves did fine, but I really would ask a breeder who uses these boxes if they are truly safe.

Oh, did I tell you, I took a fine needle and poked thousands of holes in all the membranes? I did it in a way that it did not show. The air could flow pretty easily and the birds were fine. I also poked holes in the four corners. You just have to think like a magician.

Max, congratulations on your new babies