Both of these guys are famous for their cups and balls routines. For Renaissance Faire work, which would you suggest I get?

Jeff

I like Ammar's cups and balls better than Gazzo, but Gazzo's style and use of the pouch would be a better choice for a Renaissance Fair.

It's kinda like comparing apples to oranges.

For a Renaissance Faire (which, I assume, would be situated on a street venue) I would go with Gazzo.

The Ammar tapes will definitely give you a solid foundation from which to build an act. A ton of great moves are described and taught.

With the Gazzo tape you will more or less learn his routine. Personnaly, I thought his technique was a little weak, that is, the overall mechanics. But I can't complain about the routine as a whole. Good material - well structured.

It's going to depend on where you're at in the learning curve. If you're after the basics - go with Ammar.


Just my opinion.

If you are interested in the Gazzo tape, you should grab one while you can. Both the Gazzo on the Cups and Balls and Gazzo Uncensored tapes are almost completely out of stock.

When the dealers that still have copies sell out, that will be it. We are not going to make any more VHS copies, and may or may not re-release on DVD. If we do decide to re-release on DVD, it will not be available for quite some time.

Both are great tapes and worth having in your library. If you want to work Ren Faire, the Gazzo tapes will be a good resource and inspiration.

If you are just learning the cups and balls I would say to get the Ammar tapes because there is so much stuff in them that you will have all the tools you need to create your own great routines.

If you still want more then get the The Gazzo tape, it is a great routine and you will enjoy it...

IMHO it's better to have the tools to make you own routine then to copy someone else's!

Let me be (almost) the lone voice of dissent in the mix. I worked Renaissance Festivals for more than a quarter of a century. When Gazzo came to Scarborough Faire, while I was still working there, he omitted his cups and balls routine from his show. At the time, he was recovering from a stroke. His technique may seem a little weak to some because he still isn't back up to the level he had before the stroke hit him. He did have his cups and balls with him the second year he was there, and he even did a show for me with the cups and balls before I left Scarborough Faire for good. The routine was very good, and the technique was okay. He performed it a bit more slowly than he would have liked to. And he protested during the whole thing that his technique wasn't quite where it had been before the stroke.

The purpose of this, though, is for me to point out a couple of things.

One is that maybe a full three cups and balls routine might not be the best for YOU to perform in a Renaissance Festival context. You might find, as I did, that a faster-moving routine with a chop cup may make it easier for you to hold your audience. Before you argue that Chop cups did not exist during the Renaissance, bear in mind that to the audience, the "Chop-ness" of the cup should not be an issue. To the audience and to the management, the gimmicks and techniques you use should neither be evident nor of any consequence.

I chose to do a Chop Cup routine for several reasons. One was that by the very nature of the routine, it moves faster. Another was that I was already doing a routine before I started working RenFaires, so I already had a piece of groundwork to start with. In order to get away from a normal looking piece of apparatus, I had one of our leather workers make me a Chop Cup out of leather, slightly larger than the one Tannen's used to sell, and I worked the routine around that cup. I started with the Don Alan routine and used it as a point of departure. When I finished working with it, it wasn't the Don Alan routine any more -- it was mine -- my lines, my bits of business, my loads.

And it is the LOADS that the cups and balls, whether you are talking about a three cup set or a one cup set, is all about. The loads are what people will remember longest of all. So start with the loads and work backwards to your routine. Figure out something funny or different and work from there.

By all means, you should purchase the Gazzo routine. You should also purchase the Ammar material if you plan to do the cups and balls. But you should construct your own routine with your own lines and your own bits of business, because I guarantee you that there is no way that you could do Gazzo's routine as it stands. You will need to adapt the routine to fit your skill level and your personality. If you try to copy his routine OR ANYONE ELSE'S, it will be like trying to wear someone else's clothes. It just won't work.

When you build your cups and balls routine, start with ANY good routine, and work on it until you can do it perfectly. Then start adapting it to fit your style and performing conditions.

Also, be sure to purchase the Ammar videos. There is plenty of good technical material there. And before you decide on the cups you want to use, view the historical material by Bob Read. He knows what he is talking about.

But most of all, after you have looked at all of it, work out your own act.

Bill,

Thank you for the advice, and to clear the air, I had no plans of trying to do Gazzo's routine verbatem. Even though he released it and some people would say that makes it faire game. IMHO it's still his routine, and I would not do it justice by trying to imitate it.

The reason that I asked is that working RenFaires is a very different environment then working the streets, or the stage, or table hopping. It has it's own unique flavor, and I didn't want to buy the Ammar tapes if they were designed for a strictly sit down environment and such. I know that there are a lot of nuances and sleights and such past the cups and balls routine in the Mark Wilson books. I wanted to take it to the next level, and I wasn't sure where to go.

It sounds like the Gazzo video is probably what I should get. Thanks for the advice everyone!

Jeff

Jeff:

Most of the Ammar material is done standing up. If you want techniques and material, then the Ammar video would be your best starting point. There is just more there to work with.

It doesn't take much to figure out how to use a gibeciere, so that much can pretty well be taken for granted.

Also, if you wait a couple of months and purchase the Cellini Cups and Balls video, you will find much of value in there.

I started out at Renaissance Festivals doing path shows, and moved up to the stages. But even after I had gotten to the point that I was being booked primarily for an illusion show, I still got out into the path and did my smaller stuff. And the last year I was at the Texas Renaissance Festival, I STILL did my cup and ball routine -- on stage -- with a kid from the audience watching me like a hawk. And I still got in the three final loads.

Ammar has the fundamentals.

For the fair, Gazzo hands down. He lives down here for at least half the year and performs at the beach nightly. I'll tell you he's one of the greatest street performers I have seen. He keeps the audience interested and people love him, not only due to his technique, but his personality as well, which comes through in his video. I have seen both videos and both done live, for street work or a fair, hands down Gazzo.

Okay, let me get down to cases on this. Both of these guys are friends of mine. I have known Michael Ammar for more than 25 years, Gazzo for about 7 or 8 years, and I have seen both of them perform.

Here's the situation on the videos.

The Ammar videos are really teaching videos. In addition to being a performer, Ammar is a teacher, and that comes through very strongly on the videos. Virtually EVERYTHING technical on the Gazzo video is also present on the Ammar video in greater detail, except for the following:
1) the information on loading out of a gibeciere, which just about anyone can figure out without much difficulty.
2) the hat load.
3) how to set up the "street" table.

While all of those are important, they are not crucial to learning how to do cups and balls or for constructing a routine. Basically, Gazzo's routine is the Dai Vernon routine. The Ammar videos contain a whole lot more technical data and information than the Gazzo video AND they contain the Dai Vernon routine as performed by Ammar (standing up) and by Vernon (sitting down).

Not only that, as I mentioned, Ammar is a teacher. Gazzo isn't. He was decidedly and noticeably uncomfortable in the studio when he did the teaching session. And he seemed a bit disorganized. On top of that, the audio during the street performance segment is really awful. There are lots of dropouts, so you miss a few lines here and there -- nothing critical, I might add, but you miss some lines, anyway.

Also, as similar as they might appear to be, performing in the path at Renaissance Festivals is not the same as performing on the street. It's a whole different set of parameters. At a Renaissance Festival, your time is much more restricted. If you are performing on the street, unless it is at a structured street festival, you have a lot more flexibility. Also, at Renaissance Festivals, your material is considerably more restricted.

If you want to learn to do the cups and balls, learn it from the Ammar videos, then get the Gazzo video and pick up the loose ends. But get the technical aspects of the routine perfect before you try to take it to the streets.

Any views or thoughts on the Cups and Balls teach in from the Stevens Magic, Greater Magic Video Library? This is now available on DVD as well as video. I believe it shows routines by Charlie Miller, Mike Ammar and Johnny Paul. I know this tape was released earlier but wondered if it was not mentioned simply because the others were considered "streets" ahead.

I once saw a very unflattering review of the Ammar tape.

Paul.

Bill,

All I have to say is thank you. That was one of the most informative posts I have received, and knowing that you have been performing at the Texas Renaissance Faire helps drive that home.

Up until your post, I was planning on getting Gazzo's routine in that I am going to use a Giberciere, but I do know how to load from one. (I once saw a street magician doing C&B and I caught him loading) So I think I will get the 2 Ammar DVD's instead.

Again, Thank you Bill, I appreciate it.

Jeff

I haven't seen the Greater Magic Cups and Balls Teach-in tape. Since Johnny Paul and Charlie Miller were such icons when referring to the cups and balls, I would consider this a very important video, though, especially because lay people found Johnny Paul so entertaining.

The only reasons I had not mentioned this video was that I had not viewed it and it was not part of the original question.

Michael Ammar did a Cups and Balls video for the Greater Magic series back in 1985. This video was not nearly as long as the L & L video that he did this year. I'm assuming that the L & L video was done this year, because that is the copyright date on it.

Some might find the level of simplicity that Ammar uses to start the L & L videos somewhat annoying; however, he gets down to the rock bottom basics with these videos, and goes through a lot of analysis as to how and why things are done the way they are done. Not only that, there is all of the historical material by Bob Read, which I find quite important, especially in light of the idea of performing on the street. (or in the path at a Renaissance festival).

I have the Stevens video on cups and balls. Ammar is excellent on it. Johnny Paul does a great job with his style of cups. Personally, I don't care for using sponge balls, puff balls, and the like as Aldo, Wonder, and, Paul prefer. Charlie Miller's section was poorly organized and clearly not well prepared. It was nice seeing one of the greats (CM) show his stuff. The tape is inexpensive and I recommmend it.