Hi,

Just to put the record straight, my father vanished a coin and it appeared on my shoulder and that was over 25 years ago. I've been loading coins under watches for over 10 years and my father did a version of re-cap over 25 years ago. How can anyone claim these as their own. For years magicians have found impossible places for vanished items to re-appear.

IMO James Brown improved what was already in the magic domain. No-one has the right to call these effects their own. If anybody should be taking legal action it should be my grandfather who taught my father in the first place.

Magic is full of ego`s and some people will go to any lengths to claim originality over such obvious tricks. I was told by a top magician recently that the guy who taught him did a thimble routine and the last thimble appeared on his shoulder, and that was over 40 years ago.

Most magicians who know me will know that I've been doing coin under watch and a pen routine way before a certain couple of DVD`s were released. I`m not going to sue these people due to the fact that these tricks are not mine, they`re so old no-one really knows where they came from.
All the best,
Gary Jones.

Yeah, thnks Gary and Peter. That puts my mind at ease.

Martino.

I need this secrets more than ever before now.
Do not keep this infromation from us.
We all need to learn.
To learn from James Brown.

The methods explained by James Brown on this DVD are different to that taught in other DVDs and Manuscripts. For example, James has a 1 coin routine whereas in other sources to this effect, 2 coins are used. James has great misdirection, and everyone has different techniques. As Gary mentioned, new effects are almost impossible in modern magic to come across, but new mthods and improvements are open. James has great improvements and thoughts on classic effects, created many years ago. I am still up for this being produced and hope all is reconsidered

I'm not sure the history here, but I do know that Apollo has been doing the coin on shoulder routine for many, many years and has taught it on lectures.

Greg

But, for well over 15 years, Gary Jones has been performing this, anyone at the Plymouth or Exeter Magic Circle in the UK and many others can all agree he has been performing this for over 15 years, and Gary learnt it from his Grandad who had known about it for years before that. In magic, I personally don't think anyone can claim originality on anything, as you never know what someone on the other side of the world has created. Sompe people don't release their effects and ideas as they are theirs, its what makes them different to other magicians. Yes this mayhave been put into print or DVD or Video many years ago, but this still doesn't give someone sole right to claim it as theirs and tell others they can't use it or improve on it

Oh, boy, what a "messing of your minds" here. Well, I've now gotten to see both sets of clips: Appollo's and Mr. Brown's. Wow!! Talk about a direct rip-off!! Not only is the routine the same, but the wording, presentation, structure, philosophy and theory is all the same... practically word for word. As a matter of fact, you could probably superimpose the clips and it would echo each other.
Apollo has had years of training in dance and Akido and has applied those moves and ideas to his work... Did James also study both of those arts?
First, let me applaud Mr. Nardi for being such an honest guy to instantly realize that he was ripped off and his audience would be ripped off. I salute you, Peter. It took him 30 seconds of watching the clips to realize this had been stolen. 30 SECONDS!!!
And Mr. Brown also stole from Gregory Wilson... without credit and without improvements.
It's almost laughable that Mr. Brown would say he has never seen Apollo perform this... when Mr. Brown performs this effect it's like watching a third-rate Las Vegas Elvis impersonator... he has all the moves, gestures, mannerisms and even vocal patterns, but it's still a Xerox copy.
The more I see this stuff happening the more I am sickened by this community. Wow, you don't know how disgusting and frustrating it is to see someone's hard work get stolen so easily. I guess many will never know because you can only feel that way when you create something and then it is stolen.
Please, please, I beg you guys to stop asking for this DVD. It is stolen material, stolen words, stolen gestures, stolen philosophy, stolen routining, stolen magic... STOLEN!!! It's almost ironic that Apollo has had a career based on pickpocketing and now someone has pickpocketed part of his life.
It's just plain sick and I know many will not understand or care and many will attack me for saying these things.
I am lucky to know many that actually care about what goes on in this community and I hope they stand up and fight this.
Peter Nardi, you will now be the first dealer I think of when I purchase an item in the future or decide to put out an item. Congratulations on not letting money be your guide. It makes me feel good to see someone in your position do the right thing.
Well, to everyone else, please take a hint from Nardi's decision and don't back anything from Mr. Brown on this matter.
Greg

This is all interesting
Is it possible Apollo robins learnt the coin on shoulder from Gary Jones's grandfather and greg wilson learned recap from him also?

Whether this is suppose to be funny or not, it's not just the idea of a coin on the shoulder... it's that the entire routine that Brown teaches is exactly the same, move for move, gesture for gesture, patter line for patter line... as if he is channeling Apollo.

greg

Is this true, Greg?

I've seen Brown perform this and end with loading the spectator's own watch onto their own shoulder.

When I saw Robbins lecture, he didn't end that way, but had a weaker ending.

If Brown has improved the ending, then it's not fair to say that his routine is "exactly the same"...

This is a genuine question - I'd like to know your thoughts.

Also, Brown's 'Pot of Jam' routine seemed like an original piece of thinking. I don't know what else was supposed to be on his DVD, so I can't comment. But when I saw him lecture he had some great original ideas - it seems a shame to slam his whole DVD because of one routine... Particularly when there seems to be no PROOF that he stole anything, just opinions...

After all, he is the Magic Circle 'Close-Up Magician of the Year'. With the big names that are on that voting panel, surely they must have seen some merit and originality in his work?

I have long been a fan of Gary Jones' creativity and skill and I would imagine that most serious UK magicians will be aware of his long-standing work on these kind of plots.

In fact, when I saw Robbins perform, I thorougly enjoyed it, but thought that his style reminded me of Chappy Brazil and his material of Gary Jones. Stellar company...

Thanks,

Royce K.

Hi magic606379132,

If you think your remark is meant to be funny then your mistaken, I find it an insult to me and my family. What is going on here in this debate is serious stuff.

To put the record straight, my father did a pen routine with a pen and two caps, it wasn`t anywhere near as good as Gregory Wilson`s (he was a hobbiest magician) but it was a standard routine most people would have come up with by themselves.

Coin on shoulder/under watch has been around for ever, I would imagine it was invented just after money was first used, prior to that it would`ve been chicken on shoulder, your misdirection had to be good though.

My father would do a very dodgy French drop and then put his hand onto my shoulder and leave the coin there. He also used a hook coin and stick it to my back, I now use a hook coin for coin on shoulder, it`s a sure fire way to keep the coin in place. I`m claiming this idea as mine but if anyone else has done this before I won`t threaten you, it just means we share the same thoughts and ideas. Everyone, please feel free to use this method, it really is the best method to keep a coin on any shoulder.

I`m not sure but I believe Max Malini also did coin on shoulder, I`m sure there are people reading this who would know this for certain.

I can understand that both James and the other people involved in this dispute have valid reasons for their actions, but I would be careful when it comes to claiming certain moves as their own.

How many times have you come up with a move or an effect only to be told it`s already in print.

I just hope this all ends very soon and all parties can shake hands and start again. The people involved in this dispute are all top guys and bloody good magicians, they share the same ideas and they also have the same styles, fast paced and ballsy magic which takes guts to perform. Magic needs people like this so wrecking peoples careers isn`t the best way to keeping them in the business.

All the best,

Gary Jones.

Okay, let's put it this way... this is similar to what happened with the Ultra Mental Deck... you now know it as the Invisible Deck. Sure the original idea for the deck was around, but suddenly a great magician like Don Alan puts his own spin on it and then everyone wants to do it that way... without crediting the originator of that patter and presentation.
So maybe some guys had thought of putting a coin on someone's shoulders, but did they all come up with the same patter, presentations, moves, style and justifications? That's when you have to go, "Hmmm?"
Do you actually believe that someone can not only independentally come up with the same routine, but the exact same handling, the exact same philosophy, the exact gestures, etc? It took Peter Nardi 30 SECONDS to realize that he was seeing a ripped off routine. Do you think Mr. Nardi is just not wise to the ways of magic and creation? 30 SECONDS!!!
Look, this is going to go nowhere. There are those that will always want the best... no matter the cost or how it was gotten... but I'm glad that someone of Mr. Nardi's name and reputation stood up and said, "This will not happen on my watch." Hopefully, more will join him.

Greg

Hi Greg,

I haven`t seen the person who is in dispute with James Brown do the Coin on Shoulder routine, but I`ve seen the DVD of the other guy who does this and James` method and presentation is different. I haven`t seen ----- lecture so I can`t compare styles etc.
All the best,
Gary Jones.

If this is all true alakazam are bad for putting this DVD out

No answers to any of my questions, I notice...

Royce K.

Magic 606379759132. It has become obvious from this thread and others that you are a disruptive person who has nothing useful to add to this thread or indeed this forum. It is quite clear from the thread that Alakazam are NO LONGER GOING to put this DVD out after Mr Nardi realised that the material wasn't original.

I do not condone theft of material in any way, but Apollo's routines have been published in lecture notes and he has lectured around the world on his own material. Perhaps a case of performing the published/lectured material without putting his own personality into it in Mr Browns case? I have seen neither Mr Brown perform nor Apollo lecture (although I do have his notes) so can say no more than this. Why not give Mr Brown the opportunity to resond once he returns from his holiday?

Martino.

Hi magic606379132,

I`m not sure if you`re on some sort of self destruct mission but you`re either having a wind up or you`re totally missing the gist of this debate.

Alakazam did not know any of this, do you really think Peter Nardi would spend many hours and loads of money to produce a rip off DVD, I would be very careful in what you say from now on. If you`re making these comments just to wind people up then I would really like to meet you face to face.

Gary Jones

Hi Guys

I would just like to clear one thing up. I pulled the DVD for the reason that I felt the routines were similar and not that I believed James had stolen them. I have only known James for a short while but I have found him to be a fair man. James has told me repeatedly that he has not seen Apollo lecture and I have to believe him as I have no proof to suggest otherwise.

We take rip off's and copies very seriously and would never knowingly
infringe on anyone else's routines but I have to put this down to some sort
of weird coincidence.

Apollo asked me to help with an article on stealing to be published in the
Magic magazine and I made my position clear that I would help and give my
thoughts but I would not convict James until I have seen proof. I like to
see all people as innocent until proven guilty.

I have lost a lot of money and time in this project but at this moment in time do not hold James responsible.

Best Regards

Peter

Hi Peter,

Well said, I know for a fact that James HAS NOT seen Apollo lecture.

The claim here is that James is using the same effect invented by Apollo, also the same patter, movements, techniques and mannerisms.

I was with James during the development of many of his routines, we came up with different methods and techniques during many hours of sessioning. I too have not seen Apollo lecture, I have his Culture Exchange DVD`s which I have to say are two of the best DVD`s I`ve ever seen for quality and so much useable material. I`m sure a few of Apollo`s mannerisms have rubbed off on me, he`s such a strong performer. If they have then that`s a compliment, I never intentionally set out to copy anyone.

I believe it is possilble for two people to have the same mannerisms ect, I also believe James didn`t deliberately set out to rip or copy anyone. As they say, "great minds think alike".

All the best,

Gary Jones.

Greg Arce-

Please do not take this as me stirring the pot, I'm only after some answers.

I watched both James Brown's dvd demo and his promo video, and I have Apollo Robbins on Guerilla magic, mondo magic and his promo video.

I didn't really see much similarity with the too performers.

It was like watching two boxers, Apollo moves with grace and skill, where James Brown has a different flavour to his work.


What routine is it that James does similar to Apollo's?

Again, not stirring, just curious