John,
Thank you for trying to educate people of the ethics issues of the company that produces these dvds. I for one am glad that the shop I buy from online has taken the Magic Makers line off the website.
Keep up the fight!

John - You are not the only one chewing on this bone. In this day and age it has become acceptable for the lines between honesty and dishonesty to become blurred. It is nice to hear another voice of reason in a sea of insanity. (Insanity being defined as the inability to see the difference between right and wrong.)

I know I would never take another persons work, copy it and present it as my own. Ever. Nor would I take it and make money off of it unless I had permission to do so.

Heck. I was once shown a very cool trick at Hollywood magic. I haven't seen it anywhere else and I won't even describe the effect to my closest magician friends. Why? Because it wasn't my idea. And I would certainly never perform it for pay or otherwise to anyone...ever.

Thats the difference between right and wrong. It is not a blurry line. It is quite clear and distinct.

Randy

PS "By the way. "WR" is Anthony White from Salt Lake City, Utah. I believe he is a member of the IBM here. I'm assuming he doesn't mind his identity being known as he HAS put his picture up for all to see."

No prob. It s me on that picture.
WR

Go this to this post. A little over half way down is a post from Simon himself.
http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......art=0#12

yes, but only when warranted.




Why would I want to do that? I have my own routines and I have no intention of producing a DVD.



Will it? Why? Perhaps your time would be better spent learning the correct execution of Dad Steven's Cull!



All I did mister Bishop was to point out one or two flaws in your technique thus giving you the option of improving and thus become a better magician as a result. It's not my fault if you can't take constructive criticism.

John LeBlanc said:

"You should spend some time reading this thread:

http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......start=30 "

But that thread, like a large part of another thread criticising Magic Makers Inc, has disappeared.

Any ideas as to where it went?

TIM ELLIS

I know it was not moved to a place more appropriate for its accused off-topic content. That I could perfectly understand, if not completely agree. Scrubbing it of inconvenient, or uncomfortable content, though, was disappointing.

This, like the other threads, have a direct bearing on the review process necessary when new products are brought to market. Buying a product is more than asking "how much"; it has to include "why should I" and the more important question (in magic, anyway), "is this environmentally sound" for the world of magic.

I believe those are important aspects of the review process, and I sincerely hope they are taken into consideration the next time the red pen is pulled out of the drawer.

John LeBlanc

I've dealt with WR and he's a standup guy. I ordered some non MM material and it arrived so fast, it was like I thought Santa brought it.

I don't know what's going on with MM. Simon Lovell, whom everyone loves has worked with them, so that says alot.

Is it okay to support a product or company on these threads, and say positive things about their crediting and rights to publish of products, but not to criticize them for these same issues?

I find that the posts and threads that have been excised because of their content--that is, those concerning crediting and ethical issues--are the ones that criticize a product for its derivation, or its producers for alleged violation of the rights of the true creator.

These issues, as John pointed out above, are extremely relevant and important to the question of whether the product is worthy of purchase. I think that the rules should be looked at anew.

Otherwise, only favorable reviews will be appearing on products that are obviously repetitive, unoriginal, uncredited and unfair to the creators of the originals from which they were drawn.

It seems impossible to do a fair "review" of a product without considering these extremely important issues.

100% correct Whit.

If critical posts are removed, WR and MagicChris's "cheerleading" posts should be taken off too.

The new Tim Ellis DVD's are the greatest in the world and are in a class with the New Simon Lovell DVD's!!


Please remove this post!

Please do!

How many of you who complaine about the DVD have ACTUALLY seen it? How can you say how awful it is if you don't even know what's on it? Oh by the way Simon does give credit where credit is due on the DVD. Guess you would have know that if you had seen it.
WR

Well I purchased the product because I really like Simons work. Maybe if they just make money on original
items and took a beating on the rip-offs they'd get the idea??? Just one other way of looking at it.

Well, after seeing a clip of this and Simon's card work, I'm getting it. I didn't' care for his party animal video, but everyone has said I didn't see the real Simon. Well, he's on this DVD.

It is a Killer DVD.
WR

WR said:

"Oh by the way Simon does give credit where credit is due on the DVD."

Simon Lovell said:

"To the best of my knowledge everything was out of copyright and these DVD's were to be an homage, a tribute, to Frank's books. I have been assurred that everything was to be credited correctly but I have not seen the DVD's yet so don't know."

Tim Ellis is right: Simon has endorsed his own product. Simon rules!!! The copyright has expired and Frank's material is open to be used for all our enjoyment!!!

The copyright has not expired.

My point was that WR, who has seen the DVD, says "Simon gives credit where credit is due."

Simon was assured by someone that "everything would be credited correctly". Doesn't sound like Simon does much crediting on the DVD at all.

I guess that's all the credit that WR considers due...

There is a point that I feel needs to be added to this discussion. It’s something that I’m sure several of the contributors to this thread know but none has said. There is no “Frank’s material” in the two Garcia books. Virtually everything in the books was stolen. Frank used it without permission and, initially, without credit. (He added credits in the second book because of the outcry against the first book.)

Just to cite one example, I was told by a reliable source that Francis Carlyle cried when he learned that Frank had published (initially without even proper credit) his “Card to Borrowed Envelope & Wallet.” This is something that Carlyle had passed on to Frank in strictest confidence. (There is a brief discussion of this matter on p.148 of The Magic of Francis Carlyle.)

Unlike the above example, most of the effects in Million Dollar Card Secrets and Super-Subtle Card Miracles had appeared in print before. But Frank had no permission from the creators to include them in his books.

This is not a matter of whether you think Frank was a good guy or a bad guy. It is a matter of record. Most knowledgeable card men who were in magic at the time these books were published are familiar with these facts.

Since Frank did not have permission to publish these effects, their inclusion in his books cannot confer permission on anyone to include them on a DVD.

Sincerely,
Darwin Ortiz