every one is missing the point , Bob KOhlers black envelope a wonderfull effect as well as his golden shells which he put on the market..and i highly recommend
I make my own envelopes and i do not need any one telling me how to spend my time ,my complaint is 10 bucks is a bit pricey for 8 envelopes..
vinny
and yes i like to hand the envelopes out as well as the card for souviners . Bob also does this on his video.

First of all, you should be ashamed of yourself for referring to something you think is overpriced as "getting raped". Really, REALLY ashamed.

Secondly, Bob Kohler had to SPECIAL ORDER 30,000 (that's thirty THOUSAND) envelopes to have them custom made in the weight, color and size he wanted. Before you go shooting off your mouth in public any further maybe you consider making a similar INVESTMENT, since you're looking for a good deal.

Meanwhile, until your restaurant gig pays you enough to gamble a sizeable chunk of change on a quantity order of envelopes, maybe you should just be grateful that Kohler decided to let you perform his pet routine at all.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

Thomas , I already said that I should not of used the term raped............ secondly Bob Kohler did not allow me to use his pet effect,he put it on the market for sale and I purchased this wonderfull trick ,I said that in my opinion the enevlopes were over priced. I am a very big fan of Mr. kohler as stated earlier , and thats not running my mouth. thats my opinion

Ok, I know nothing about this effect, but you all have piqued my interest, where can I find it or at least more about it?
Thanks
Steve
zzz

No, what you said was that "Maybe" you shouldn't have used the word "raped" and that it was "a little to [sic] strong". It wasn't merely a little too strong, it was downright offensive - as anyone who has been raped or is close to someone who's been raped can tell you - and you should be deeply ashamed of throwing that word around so lightly.

And, yes, Bob Kohler DID allow you to use his pet routine when he decided to release it to the public. Had he not done so, you would not currently be performing it.

Finally, as I already said, if you aren't willing to put up the hefty investment to have a custom run of special envelopes, then you should be happy that Bob Kohler DID make that effort, so that you have a place to buy them. Geez it's amazing how some magicians would want to deny the producer of a high quality magic product a reasonable profit.

In fact, let's just examine that for a minute... If Kohler manages to sell 1000 "Black Envelope" DVDs (a VERY good number for a magic item release), he'll use up 5000 envelopes. That means he still has to sell 25,000 MORE before the full run is consumed. Meanwhile, if he's quadrupling the cost of the envelopes (I don't think he's doing that well, btw) he'll still have to sell more than 1000 extra envelopes just to break EVEN! It may take him YEARS to show a reasonable profit on his effort.

As for YOUR needs, I think if you can't afford to give them away, then maybe you shouldn't.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

Leave David Copperfield alone. He needs the money.

Thomas ,I stand corrected, the sales of the DVDS,and having to make up the loss of the envelopes makes sense. i hadent't looked at it that way,
The quality of the product was never in question.
several months ago I posted what a great effect the black envrelope was for card workers as well as mentalist.and still feel that way.
and if I did not like Bob Kohlers products I would never have purchased it.
the word rape was not intended to offend people in the way you think , I should of used better judgment .
I will repost and tell the magic Café of this.
I hope i did not make to many enimies it was not my intention
vinny

Just to echo some of Thomas' thoughts...I was involved with getting Bob in touch with the envelope manufacturer (my client) and what I have not seen posted is the real reason he had to get these envelopes made at all. Yes, it is difficult though not impossible to find a black envelope. It is even more difficult to find a black envelope of the correct size and weight. It is impossible to find a black envelope of the correct size and weight without the glue strip on the flap. That is the main reason Bob had to get these envelopes custom made in the first place. He says so right on the DVD that he had them made that way so that if you were carrying them in your pocket, the flap wouldn't glue itself shut from humidity or perspiration. I defy enyone to find an envelope of any color, size or weight (let alone a black envelope) that doesn't have the glue strip on the flap. You either have to make it yourself. or send Bob the dough so he can recoup his quite substantial investment.

Guys,

Cut Vinny some slack. He apologized for using the term "rape" a few times in the thread, why continute bashing him?

If he feels that Kohler is charging too much for the envelopes, he is allowed to tell us right? His choice of language was not the best, but don't attack his ideas because of the word(s) he used.

[quote]On 2002-11-30 18:50, CharlieC wrote:
Guys,

Cut Vinny some slack. He apologized for using the term "rape" a few times in the thread, why continute bashing him?

Charlies right were all entitled to an opinion - slagging off Vinny does nothing to help matters.

MikeM

Right. Everyone has a right to express their opinion, regardless of how uninformed that opinion may be. Furthermore, I don't recall anyone arguing that Vinny (or anyone else, for that matter) did NOT have such a right.

As for attacking his ideas "because of the word(s) he used", I didn't. I CLEARLY addressed each issue separately. First, I attacked the words he used because they were completely inappropriate and thoroughly offensive. Then I attacked his ideas because they were based on a self-serving, but uninformed position.

Finally, Vinny himself brought the matter to a close (for me, anyway) with his honest and heartfelt mea culpa, and I (for one) have a good deal of respect for him because of that. As far as I can see, in this and one other thread, you and Mike M. are the only ones keeping the issue alive.

Regards,
Thomas Wayne

Group Hug!!!

CorpMagi is correct when he says that Bob has had to special order his envelopes and expensive they are. I have looked into this after seeing many of the Larry Becker affects using special black evelopes and have found that a minimum order of several thousand has to be order to obtain them in the desired size or specifications. If you price them at that rate, his asking price per isn't really all that bad. I am surprised that some stationary company hasn't jumped on the band wagon and offered black envelopes to the magic community at reasonable prices. Office Max take heed.

Scott

I have a question here, and understand that, I, know nothing of the trick other then what I have read here, which is it uses black envelopes and comes on a DVD.

Without giving any secrets here, are these just regular black envelopes that don't have a glue seal on them?

I do understand the reasoning behind buying large quanties of a no seal envelope from the maker of the trick and the possible problems with them glueing themselves shut before they are sent to a customer. Can any black envelope with a glue seal be used for the average person performing the trick if he plans on giving the envelope out as a souvenier?

These probably are not the right specs for the envelopes used, but doing an internet search on black envelopes, I had one hit that offered black envelopes in various sizes and shapes.

The price without shipping was as follows:

Black Square Envelopes
5" Square- 70# Midnight Black - 500 envelopes $52.95, 2/$99.00
6" Square -70# Midnight Black - 500 envelopes $58.95, 2/$105.95
Larger sizes available here too

Black Envelopes with Square Flap
A2 (4 3/8 x 5 3/4) - 70# Midnight Black - 250 envelopes $32.95, 2/$52.95, 4/$92.50
A6 (4 3/4 x 6 1/2) - 70# Midnight Black - 250 envelopes $34.95, 2/$54.95, 4/$99.95
A7 (5 1/4 x 7 1/4) - 70# Midnight Black - 250 envelopes $37.95, 2/$59.95, 4/$109.95
A8 (5 1/2 x 8 1/8) - 70# Midnight Black - 250 envelopes $42.95, 2/$69.95, 4/$129.95
A10 (6 x 9 1/2) - 70# Midnight Black - 250 envelopes $74.95, 2/$98.50, 4/$179.95

Like I said before, I have no knowledge on this trick, so please pardon my ignorance on this subject. Also does it only come on a DVD as I am behind the times and do not have one?

Chris

Ok I did a bit more reading on this topic. I visited Bob Kohlers site and looked up a review on the Black Envelope.

The reviewer recommends that if you need more "you can take one apart and use it as a template to make your own out of black construction paper. If that’s too inconvenient for you, Bob has tons of refills for sale on his website". Strictly speaking, the envelope doesn’t have to be black as long as the paper is thick enough. But black makes the card easier to see, and besides, black looks cool"

So I guess making one yourself is ok as well as is even getting a different color if you choose providing the paper is thick enough.

I suppose you could even make it a seasonal or special color scheme if you choose.
With Valentines day coming, Red would be appropriate.

Have a great day,

Chris

For Black envelope, I saw the online demo and was wondering about a few things before i go out and buy it.

1.) can you give away the envelope after the end of the trick? (Or do i have to do a switch?)

2.) How much of a clean up is there after the trick? For ex. as little as MCDonalds's aces or more than that?

Usally i perform for friends & family, so my performances usually take place on a table with people no more than 2 - half a foot away from me. So would this be a good effect for such a distance?


And by the way does anyone know where you can get metal playing cards? I think I read it from one of the threads in here about a place that has bicycle cards that were made out of metal, or some metallic substance. I can't locate the thread anymore...

Thanks,

Just wanted to say two things:

Black Envelope is a FANTASTIC trick! Perfect for all skill levels- I haven't worn out my envelopes yet.

RAPE- Is only a sexual word if you view it that way. Those sensitive to the word understandably would. A lot of people use the word in the same context as Vinny had.
TO HAVE SOMETHING TAKEN FORCEABLY- which IS the definition of this word.
Now, Bob Kohler didn't "forceably" take Vins money, but there's nothing sexual or offending about it either, at least in a sense of the language used, it was proper.

The envelope is ungimmicked and can be given away.

Vinsmagic,

Didn't you know, you are not supposed to present dissenting and sometime negative views here.

This is an open forum of like minds; So get with the program.

To all others: Vinsmagic thinks the envelope are too expensive at the asking price. And he wanted to voice an opinion to see if anyone else thinks so too.

There must be something wrong with him. He can easily make them himself out of special ordered paper, or go to the United Kingdom to shop, or open his own business and order them himself.
Vinsmagic, do you see how easy this is?

I apologise for his views and will chastise him for his open negaivity, hopefully in the future he will only post views that are in the mainstream.

Terry, if people like you start chastising people for their opinions people will start shying away from them. That can't be good in a forum like this. Lighten up, would ya. Be constructive, not abusive.