Bonehead,

It isn’t a shock to anyone here that some people don’t know who these guys are and have not studied like “geeks” to learn who they are. That is why they are asking the question of value in the FIRST PLACE. Good thing have a place to ask the “geeks” where to find the value at, huh?

You are right on concerning the martial arts student as well, but wouldn’t you say that if you asked the white belt whom he would rather learn from, the blue belt or Bruce Lee, that he would choose Bruce? No one said that he couldn’t learn anything from less than a black belt, we said that if a person has a choice, which we do, (this is magic not martial arts) we would pick the more qualified person. What is so hard to get about that?

You stated, “I thought I saw somewhere that he had sold about 1500 of them so far. Hummm....1500 in what, 12 weeks now?”

That isn’t exactly a statement based on fact, in case you don’t realize it. I thought I saw somewhere that Elvis was seen leaving Denny’s Friday night, but that hardly makes is true. Fact is that you have no idea how many have sold.
Bonehead,

You make some great points and I hate to sound like a smart a**, but we don’t have to “hold on” and it isn’t a “shock” to anyone that there are people who don’t know who said people are or where to find their material. THAT IS WHY THEY ASK FOR SOMEONE ELSE’S OPINION IN THE FIRST PLACE. That is what a request for a review is all about.

And lets say for a minute that it has sold tons, good sales does not prove a “valuable” product it proves a well-marketed product. There is a HUGE difference. If you don’t believe me find one of the owners of the famed “Pet rock”, they sold in astronomical amounts, was it really because they were valuable, or just well marketed? For someone giving lessons in economics to us all you sure have a hard time with the basics. Give me a break.

You are right, opinion are opinions, but all I can say is that I wish someone would have taken the time out when I was younger and first started in magic to point out where the real value was because it would have saved me a ton of cash and even more disappointment. That is all that a few of us have been trying to do here.

[quote]On 2005-06-08 19:44, bonehead wrote:
Fair enough, but perhaps a point that some keep missing is that, hold on, this might be a shock, there are people who don't know who Richard Turner, Steve Forte, and Darwin Ortiz are. Yes, I know, it's hard to believe, but not everyone who's interested in magic is a magic geek and study the craft to a point where they know who's who in magic.

Bonehead,
If you don't know who Ortiz is then do us all a favor and get out of magic. As far as a magic geek goes, it appears that the only geeks in magic are those who have a Marshall Brodien (no offense to Mr. Brodien is intended)degree and try to speak with a knowledge of things which by demonstration of their own words they simply have no clue.

Very nice caseman, so if people don't know who Ortiz is that they should quit magic. Good to know your mind is so open to other ideas. I know see the real value in your opinion. It's either your way or no way. Nice mentality for life and magic. Silly me, I thought there was room in magic for someone who bought a Svengali deck from a trip to Vegas as well as people who idolize Ortiz. I didn't realize I was so wrong. I didn't realize they is only room in YOUR magic world for those "hard core" guys.

Clark, fair points, I'm just saying there are many more valuable ways to give an opinion than "This sucks- don't waste your money".

And back to the martial arts side of it, people rarely get to opportunity to learn, from the beginning, from the master. Instead, they almost always work through learning different levels until they reach a level where the master will step in and teach them. I see no need for a hobbiest to HAVE to learn from the master from day one.

Also, most of the criticism I have seen is based more on the camera angles rather than his skill. Comments like "I saw this" or "I saw that". Well, what did you expect, the camera angle sucked on that shot. Even the mighty Ortiz would have been flashing with those camera angles. Instead of commenting on things like that, it's all directed at this guy who was probably given a few hundred bucks to sit down and be filmed. If the people editing it didn't have sense enough to learn the flashing off, or cut things that didn't get filmed properly, it's not his fault. Bash Expert Magic for that, it's there production.

Fine points bonehead and yes, I can see the "sucking" comment not being liked, but I have to say that I still believe it to be true about the overall project.

I agree on teh martial art sid eoftings and I aslo agree on its effectivness. I still have to say that this is a litle different due to the fact that the "master" , in allot of cases, is more readily avalible in our art and that it is very possible to train with the best through personal instuction as well as other media. You are right, hey do not HAVE to learn form them at first, but the choice is more there and that is why I am saying get their products rather than this one.

The camera can definitely be a problem I agree, but can tell you that the angle was not the problem on most of the DVD. Anything other than a shot from the Goodyear Blimp was going to catch a flash (to put it lightly) on his bottom deal. I just don't think the guy, no matter the production value or angle problems,is ready to be taching on a DVD, but once again my oinion isn't ging to change the worlds view, it's only a viewpoint.

Thank you for you views though, you make some valid points.

Bonehead,

You missed my point entirely. I don't idolize Ortiz, but I know who he is but that wasn't the point. I didn't start off knowing all of the best moves & tricks, but I did have access to everything Mr. W is trying to teach, and the books & videos myself and other magicians, learned from have already covered the material and these sources clearly demonstrated mastery of the material they were teahcing. You may not agree or like it, but the facts are plain. His DVD is re-hash, and the sad part is, he has proven that he has not mastered the material. My point as well as several others is actually to encourage everyone who is considering putting out a "teaching video" is to be sure you aren't reinventing the wheel, and if you are be good at your reinvention. I am aware that different personalities and abilties can help us see things in new ways. You are absolutely entitled to your views and I respect that. And just so you know, I was someone who many years ago was buying everything in sight at magic shops I would visit because I had no guidance from someone who could have prevented much dissappoinment in my purchases for lack of understanding. Let me give you another example. The DL is the one of the most used, as well as abused moves in card magic. It is one of the best "card weapons" we have but so many "magicians"
do it poorly because of the instant gratification of material available today. It has been taught by many who have mastered it's use, but it has also been taught by numerous others as well who clearly have not. I am stating that if you intend on teaching "anything" you should have a mastery of what you are teaching. Come to think of it, that may be why we have so many mimics in magic (it's ok to imitate when you are starting out, it makes sense- see Whit Hayden's thoughts on this) They have a surface knowledge, but no real roots. At I will say what has already been said on many of the posts. Someone asked for a review, and it was given. You do what you feel is right for you.

Getting back to martial arts and gambling sleights.

If you want to learn kung fu you learn from Bruce lee

If you want to learn aikido you learn from Steven segal

And if you want to learn judo you learn from....eh....the best judo guy.

Remember just because you have a good second deal , it doesn’t mean you can call yourself Mr Miyagi.

When I turned 26yrs old I felt a huge gap in my life. And one day I turned on the TV. Karate kid 2 came on and then I ‘saw the light‘. I knew from then on I was going to dedicate my life to being a kung fu master.

I travelled to china and trained under Master Yang Jwing-Ming. He taught me the true meaning of martial art and in particular the art of fighting with out fighting.

I came back to Europe as a 35yr old fighting machine. The guys in my neighbourhood nicknamed me Chuck Norris though I suspect it was for my extremely hairy chest rather than my fighting ability.

The day came when the local bully challenged me to battle. We met outside the local KFC .I spent 15 mins warming up with ancient kung fu …erm…warm ups and he then came out of KFC.As I took my Ding bu (Ding Bo): Ding Bo Mah. also known as the cat stance he just clubbed me over the head with his family bucket. It was over in seconds.

So the moral of this story is…if your thinking about learning a centre deal…DON’T BOTHER

Guys,

Plain and simple. This is like comparing a Yugo to a BMW. But wait, let's buy the Yugo because you know, they are a new country that hasn't been producting automobiles for very long so how can we expect them to be as good as a BMW. And they will be better then BMW in 10 Years because they are passionate.

If you guys want to spend your lunch money on crap, then by all means, go ahead.

Dave

Card123,
Dude, you got to learn the art of "Gun-Fu". Just watch a bunch old Hood movies like Meanace to Society, Boyz in the Hood, New Jack City, you know the OLD ones. You won't get hit in the head with a bucket next time.

Anyway, if you want to learn these slieghts for personal gain go for it. Seconds, center, bottom deals it's all the same. HARD, well for me that is. Take the time to learn things you would actually learn.
K

Perhaps an interesting question to ponder would be :

How much does the title of this form the opinions (negative ones) you have about this DVD.

Had this been named "Introduction to Card Cheating Techniques" would it change your opinion of this DVD? Would you now say "Oh, well, if it's an introduction, it's reasonable. Not great, but reasonable.".

Does the fact that it's named "Weapons of the Card Shark" conjour up expectation levels that meet or exceed Forte, Ortiz, etc.?

From reading a lot of these posts, I tend to believe many people would have been more accepting of the DVD had it been named something along the lines of "Introduction to Card Cheating Techniques".

The idea of this thread was to give an honest review of the work on the Weapons of the card shark DVD... Yet I have read insults and other banter about things that have nothing to do with this DVD.

First of all J Wessmiller is a very good magician with a deck of cards and does card shark moves very well. The DVD is titled Weapons of the card shark. And in my viewpoint the DVD lives up to the title.

One of the complaints was about his bottom deal Yet I have seen most of the video and DVD products of many of the top masters and in my view point some of the moves that they did on their own video's and DVD‘s leaves room for improvement. Everyone is not perfect.

I have seen one of them (a top name in card magic) do a center deal expo that leaves room for much improvement and the constant calling of card cheats are card sharks as gamblers (Highly prized by gamblers) over and over again in these kind of products - for me is a little much.

A card cheat or advantage player is not a gambler. They use skill and ability to take advantage of the gamblers and other players at the card table. They may be good card players but I feel that there is little real gambling done in order for them to make their living playing cards.

Getting back to this thread and the DVD Weapons of the card shark. This DVD delivers and shows the viewer weapons that a card shark may use.

To some in magic - like all DVD and video products - some of this information might be useful and some of the information may not be.

My opinion about any DVD or book product is that if you get one good idea from a book or a DVD it is worth the investment.

Bonehead,

I think you made a great point about the title setting up a cartian expectation. Definitely something to think about. You really have me thinking about how different would my opinion have been if it was taitled differently, Thank you.


bishthemagish,

Many people gave their "honest review of the product" if it seemed like personal insults to you then you took it wrong. Granted some of the guys here took some jabs at each other in fun, but I think that is because we don't all take ourselves to seriously. Don't forget these are card tricks, were not saving the work here. If you think some of these opinions were "insults" then 60% of Mike Close's reviews must have really upset you. Maybe we should add a desclaimer that "No ones feelings were hurt in the making of theis review." Jesus, lighten up a little. Unfortunately there are people everywhere that like to "stir", and that causes poeple who were trying to be honest (and as I stated before honestly is not always nice) to have to go overboard to prove their point.

I also have seen the most of the video products out there and was dissapointed by some of them as well, but no one asked us about those, they asked about this one, hence we posted a review on this one. I think that you misunderstand the point that many of us were making, no one is demanding "perfection", only a better ability than was demonstrated on this DVD. The other material that I have seen from what I consider to be the "greats" had a MUCH better percentage of quality performances, but then that is subject to who is watching and a debatable viewpoint. All in what you expect for your money I guess, I excpect allot if I can get it.

I think allot of the material could be "useful", but the question is, is this guy qualified to teach it?

Anyway, thanks for posting the food for thought, I love a different viewpoint that makes me see thing in a new way.

Nope - nothing personal toward me. I view the product - material and price and I find the title lives up to the name. In fact I did not learn anything new from this product - perhaps it is because I have been doing card effects for 40 years and grew up knowing Jack Pyle, Jim Ryan, Bill Malone, Terry Vecky, Jimmy Cards Molinari, Ed Marlo etc...

But I find the product very good from someone that does HAVE SKILL and took the risk of putting something out there. In a market place that is overflowing with experts and egotists in this field of magic.

That is a matter of opinion - I find this as an excuse to be very weak.


After viewing the DVD I would say YES... And I feel that he has every right to teach these moves his way. And as I said before some magicians may find the material useful and some may not. Had I been starting out and got this DVD I would have found it very useful. I would put it into the top ten of this kind of material on this subject of card shark expo magic.

As I stated before, there was nothing personal with me either. I viewed the exact same DVD judging by the exact same criteria that you mentioned and came to a different conclusion. I viewed the DVD as relatively uninformative and for the most part executed poorly. He is MUCH better at most of these moves that I am or ever will be as I am much more into magic than gambling, but I'm also not the one playing the role of teacher on the DVD in question. Point being, I never said that he had NO SKILL. I said he should have waited until his skills developed further before releasing a DVD that portrayed him as an "expert" to people that were looking for the best value for their money.

I am not surprised that you learned nothing new here. I have only been in magic for about 16 years and didn't either. After hanging with all the names that you are dropping I would think that you would expect more from a product than an expo of known card moves that are executed marginally at best, but then what do I know as you have been in the game "40 year" and I am a "infant" in comparison.

As for the "weak excuse comment", once again you misunderstand me, I wasn't offering up an "excuse" as I do not owe YOU one. I gave you the REASON that some of us can still love the art without all the over inflated ego and without taking ourselves to seriously.

I can appreciate the fact that you see the DVD as useful and that you think he should be able to teach "his way", but I respectfully disagree. I don't think there was a "his way" way on the DVD, that would take new insight from him and I just didn't find any, but then once again, that is my opinion...that WAS asked for.

If he is in your top ten I would really love to see a list of your favorites and where he falls numerically. I know the printed word can come across wrong so I will state that I am not being a smart a**, I just can't see it. I understand if you do not have the time.

My pleasure Clark. That was where I was trying to go. I seriously doubt Jeff had much input into the cover art, the title, the marketing, the camera angles, or the final cuts (which he's being given full credit for via assumptions made in some of these posts). So, under the new title of "Introduction to Card Cheating Techniques", how would you rate it?

I thought that the execution of the material was fine. And in fact better than many DVD's including some of the big name DVD's...

I understand your point but where does it say that on his DVD. The DVD is titled Weapons of the card shark. And it teaches the weapons and moves that a card shark might use to take advantage in a card game. As with all DVD products some of the moves may be useful to some and some may not. I found the price reasonable and good information for the price as a whole.

I have been accused of name dropping often but for me these are people that I was around while growing up in magic. I have been doing magic shows since I was eight years old and I haven't stopped working since.

And when I see a young magician out there giving and trying to get his name out there and they have skill and it is an honest effort. I think it is good for magic. There is very little new to card shark material. There was Erdnase - McDoogle - Scarne and then a few others. I do not expect more from a product. When I see a DVD like this one I look at it from a different point of view than most magicians.

I feel this DVD is very good and his next one will most likely be better because we all learn and improve with age and by doing it!

Clark,

Great posting my friend. My main point on this DVD is everyone states that it could be better but he is young or the camera work or editing isn't what it should be. The question is, why is this my problem? If I am going to spend money, I have a choice and excuses don't cut it.

Jason is good but not great on this DVD. I am sure he will progress nicely over the years. He should have been patient in my opinion and waited. Taking a risk is great, but there can be consequences.

And yes, Clark is right in stating that sometimes we poke fun and the thruth be told it is only a card trick to some of us and not saving the world. I believe in doing the best that you can do but also believe in humility as well and keeping things in persepective.

If this was an introduction to card cheating that would be fair although the price would have to drop.

Dave

Bishthemagish,

You are right,the DVD does not specifically state "this guy is an expert", but does it really take that big a leap to figure out that is indeed what is implied when a person releases a teaching video in the first place? Jesh...if someone stops you in an dark alley with a gun and his hand out does he really have to wear a name tag that reads, "Hello I'm a mugger!" Certain things are just understood.

By the way, I wasn't accusing you of "name dropping", my meaning was that you have obviously been around some talented guys so I thought your expectation would be higher, that is all.

I know allot of young guys that are trying to get their name out there as well and I respect that, but the fact that they are trying doesn't mean they are ready, it only means they are ambitious. In my opinion a better way is to give some of of your material to the various magazines and such, do some free lectures. Let people get a feel for you and your style, judge your work and thinking and then release a DVD or book, not the other way around. We have to many people craming premature work in the market as is, he's only 21, let things develop.

By the way, I am not just "blowing smoke", I have material coming out soon and I have had most of it for 10 years or more, but I never felt that it was my place to sell it then. I wanted to test it more, let it grow, let me grow, and make sure that it was something that was at least well thought out. If you truly love this art have you have to be more concerned with quality ofthe product than the selling quantity. Is that the best "sales" advice, no, but that is the difference in trying to give something back, and just plain ol' trying to turn a profit. That is all I expect out of everyone else, if that is too much to expect then so be it, I'll give that product a bad review if asked as well.

I am dead serious about my passion and beliefs, but I think Dave it best when he stated, "we are doing card tricks not saving the world."

It is interesting how the effect of the magic bug - when it bites us how it effects people differently.

Tarbell talked about this and goal setting in his books... Three men all building something together - Ask the first man what he is doing? He answers he is just laying brick - Ask the next man - he is building a wall - ask the third man he is building a cathedral...

Which man has the most positive goal and will most likely reach the goal and have the most respect for his work?

Now apply that to just doing card tricks?

Some may just be doing card tricks while others like me consider this their "Life’s work"! Are you building a cathedral when you learn and perform or are you just laying bricks?

Glenn,
You make great points here. I think that people are just missing the point. It's not a big thing. Everyone has opinions and that is what this whole site is designed for, to get us into heated debates on the size of the briefs for seconds, and the proper grip when doing a bottom deal. This is really funny. I have watched this whole thread evolve from reviews to name calling, to trying to justify peoples responses etc....It just weird or a DVD that so many people think suck it sure is getting a lot of exposure. Just think.....a bunch of people read this and said, "If it really is this bad I gotta buy one for myself to find out!" And sales go up. Not that is about money, but remember any publicity is good publicity.

I have read a lot of guys here talking about the price, how if they are going to spend the money than it should be worth it. Or the price should drop because of the low quality. Weird, how 30 dollars makes people go crazy! You'd think he was asking for your first born!

Grow up people. ITS A FREAKING DVD! If you like it buy it. If you don't then leave it alone. If you have it, say what you thought. Help give constructive criticism. If you can't then be brutally honest and say you thought it sucked. But now we're just beating a dead horse. Give it up already! This is not the end of the world. It's like the quality of this DVD and the price and everything else about it is going to determine when the end of the world comes. Let sleeping dogs lie, and give up the drama.

Dance puppets, dance!

NOT an aneurysm over a DVD,
Jonathan Brown

Glen, you make a great point and I think theoretically there is a very valid lesson in your statement. I do have to say again though that I have been diligently studying out art for roughly 16 years. I would hardly classify myself as a “brick layer.” You implying that because some of us can lighten up about things that we are somehow less motivated or care less is petty funny to me.

To use your terms though and since you asked, I guess am building a “cathedral” in my art, but my “life’s work” is my family, friends and loved ones. Me getting too caught up in this as my “life’s work” tends to make a life style that that is unsuitable for me. Look over the text and see what it did for Vernon’s family life, our for God’s sake what half of Marlo’s closest friends thought of him right before he died. I have spoken at length with three of his VERY CLOSEST friends (names are not important, especially with this subject matter) at length in order to try and get a feel for the man behind the cards, and they had the GREATEST admiration for him as a creative genius, but there was a common thread amongst those that I have spoken with that reflected a bitter, jealous, man that even caused a large number of his closest allies to create distance between themselves and him. To say that we all benefited greatly from their work is the understatement of the century, but to loose, even for a moment, the real priorities in life over a pack of pasteboards is just plain sad.

Jonathan, you are VERY right, in my opinion, in most every thing that you posted, thanks for your viewpoint. I have to say though that most of the people here are not just complaining about loosing $30, I see you as lost on that one. Most of the people here that didn’t like the DVD said so (which really got under peoples skin for some reason and that is beyond me.) and simply continued to make the point that this DVD can be clumped into a larger problem due to its lack of value in their eyes.

If sales go up due to the overall publicity I could care less, after I have made my view known (in an effort to try to help a new guy) then it is up to the other consumers if they will but out of curiosity. By the way the “any publicity is good publicity” is a little played out as well as just wrong. I have seen Close and Swiss comment badly on a product and just plain kill it commercially. I know a few guys that had products doing moderately well for the most part and then received a negative pubic review from those two and you could hardly give away the excess inventory. If you are already established, then any publicity as good publicity is mostly right, otherwise it can kill you in some ways.